ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:25 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm
Posts: 333
breadsmith wrote:
The system in use here is set up based upon ability to beat madness/insane. As such, there isn't any real difference between a ghoul and a dwarf, they both suck at higher tiers.


Not sure what you mean. In the original post it says:

Quote:
The majority of classes can complete Insane, however some will find it harder than others, as such the list is based mainly on this.


Do you mean that neither a dwarf nor a ghoul or yeek could possibly beat insane difficulty, regardless of class? :?

Or do you mean that a 20% speed penalty does not make any sort of difference on a higher difficulty? A ghoul will occasionally be hit by bad status effects and / or raw damage twice in a row. This is deadly on normal difficulty (admittedly the only thing I do), surely it should make life (even) more dangerous on higher difficulty as well?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:57 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 6:15 am
Posts: 169
Oh no, ghouls still definitely still suck on higher tiers, which is what the rankings seem to be based off of. But the Dwarven trait set won't do much of anything at the higher tiers. While still better than ghouls, the difference in winnability probably isn't enough to justify that level of granulation.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 6:09 pm 
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Retired Ninja

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 4:38 pm
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So what's the deal with Skirmishers?

Nightmare win

http://te4.org/characters/32594/tome/80 ... 20b0549e55

Same player, Madness Win

http://te4.org/characters/32594/tome/44 ... 4c368e3fb0

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:40 pm 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm
Posts: 333
breadsmith wrote:
Oh no, ghouls still definitely still suck on higher tiers, which is what the rankings seem to be based off of. But the Dwarven trait set won't do much of anything at the higher tiers. While still better than ghouls, the difference in winnability probably isn't enough to justify that level of granulation.

Research indicates otherwise. :wink: A few queries from the character vault:

Shalore characters that reached level 50 on insane/roguelike: 26
Thalore characters that reached level 50 on insane/roguelike: 20
Yeek characters that reached level 50 on insane/roguelike: 14
Dwarf characters that reached level 50 on insane/roguelike: 13
Halfling characters that reached level 50 on insane/roguelike: 10
Skeleton characters that reached level 50 on insane/roguelike: 8
Ghoul characters that reached level 50 on insane/roguelike: 3

Ghoul is very clearly the worst here (although I'm not going to do a p-value analysis).


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:12 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 819
3 of those are Stone Wardens. Ghouls can't be Stone Wardens.
5 of those are over a year old. I'm pretty sure Ghoul buffs are more recent than that.
More people playing something doesn't mean it's better.

There are at least 3 other things wrong with using that as statistical evidence that Dwarves are considerably better than Ghouls.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:33 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:44 pm
Posts: 800
edge2054 wrote:
So what's the deal with Skirmishers?

Nightmare win

http://te4.org/characters/32594/tome/80 ... 20b0549e55

Same player, Madness Win

http://te4.org/characters/32594/tome/44 ... 4c368e3fb0


Either that guy is some ToME genius or that madness win isn't legit

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:44 am 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 512
Ahem, what is that Compressed time item the character has in inventory?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:26 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 1:34 pm
Posts: 129
It was a one-time bonus item that Darkgod distributed when the game hit 500 years of played time.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:30 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:20 pm
Posts: 176
Unless they provide some explanation as to how it was done I will assume it isn't a legit win.

1. Ghoul: can't really abuse this as they don't have access to Heroism.
2. Ghoulish Leap: pretty decent mobility.
3. Retch: the heal/damage is ok. This can remove physical effects (30%) from enemies, so this hits vitality, which is nice.
4. Gnaw: this is pretty good if you can apply it.
5. 20% global speed penalty: yeah this is really bad but you can compensate it with some speed abilities.

1. Resilience of the Dwarves: nice saves/armour boost. Doesn't really stand out from what you get on items.
2. Stoneskin: this is terrible.
3. Power is money: requires to hold onto 2.5k for 30 saves in all. Generally speaking saves are kind of lackluster but it's not completely bad.
4. Stone Walking: this is pretty good.

Overall: they both suck and I can't be bothered to make a separate tier for them, although I admit Ghoul is worse. If Shalore was nerfed then I would consider making a more detailed one.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:46 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 512
Mex wrote:
Unless they provide some explanation as to how it was done I will assume it isn't a legit win.

There are some red flags on the character sheet. I don't want to point them out because I have zero actual proof that this character is a cheater. I want people to make their own judgements.

But if I had to guess, I'd say it isn't a legit win.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:49 pm 
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Retired Ninja

Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 4:38 pm
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Mex wrote:
Unless they provide some explanation as to how it was done I will assume it isn't a legit win.


supermini wrote:
Either that guy is some ToME genius or that madness win isn't legit


I see a lot of vaulted items. Does that make a win not legit?

Outside of that I see no obvious signs of cheating. Stats look fine, talents look fine.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:49 pm 
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Mankeli wrote:
Mex wrote:
Unless they provide some explanation as to how it was done I will assume it isn't a legit win.

There are some red flags on the character sheet. I don't want to point them out because I have zero actual proof that this character is a cheater. I want people to make their own judgements.

But if I had to guess, I'd say it isn't a legit win.


What red flags? I don't see any.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:40 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:01 am
Posts: 80
Arguably getting a free +8 lite radius is kinda cheating.
Also pretty much all of his gear might be vaulted (but it's madness non archmage so that's expected).


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:30 am 
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Time to resurrect this discussion.

I just finished up an insane run as Necromancer (my first insane win), and I wanted to weigh in that the class is not only good in theory, but is absurdly strong in practice. My build did not come close to unlocking the full potential of the class, and I still found things miles easier than any other class I'd tried on Insane even Archmage, although I don't think I've ever built an Archmage properly. I didn't build my Necromancer properly either though, and I still won, which I think says something about the class.


The first thing that stood out to me was just how awesome 5/5 Blurred Mortality is in the early game. Necro has a lot of ways to waste time without actually dying and I found myself below 0 hp constantly in the early game before I found a heroism infusion. This ability alone made the transition to T2 substantially less brutal. Max this crap ASAP, its 250+ hp at basically no cost, and pretty much every class/build need to find at least that much bonus hp from *somewhere* to not just be meat paste. Necro gets that free. For FREE.

The other ability I found to be completely bonkers was Forgery of Haze. This thing spawns with +2 talent points spent in most of your skills so they have higher damage bases (and sometimes even larger size), and once you are geared for endgame with 100% crit, it's extra points in Magic of the Eternals for crit damage, and the fact that its damage penalty uses additive math against your dark (or ice) bonus leaves it consistently doing more damage than you do. You don't even have to max it to get great mileage because for its last few turns it will likely use garbage abilities you have 1 point in. You just want to be sure it has enough time to cast all your best stuff (it probably will). It especially loves to cast Fear the Night, so if you have 2 turns before something nasty gets to you, summon the forgery and it will almost certainly cast Fear for you, letting you do it again yourself in a turn or three. Note that whatever is on cooldown when you cast it is *also on cooldown on the forgery* so summon it before you blow your load. 3 points in the ability is a break point where you get 2 turns of duration for 1 point, so I stopped there. The thing still carried hard. It consistently broke 3k (I never quite got a number that large), and it solo'd Grushnak (while standing in Bathe in Light and face tanking him) while i was out of LoS from him and hadn't yet realized he wasn't just another Rare. Oh, and it uses Tactical AI not Dumb AI, so it will never hit you with Starfall. Watch out for Chill of the Tomb and Cold Flames, though, because it does not account for where you might want to be in the future, and those move slowly.

The build I used is not optimal (no Sacrifice, no Draconic Will, no Hidden Resources, no cheese with Timeless) and ended up pretty item dependent, so I wont speak to the endgame strengths of the class if you don't pillage your vault (which I did, so if you think that hurts the legitimacy of my post ... well so do I). But wow just wow did Blurred Mortality do a load of work all the way through Nur (where the vault took over, and I stopped really being in much danger). Once I was geared up, Forgery of Haze sure was a beast. Those two abilities stood out to me as generically good non-cheese.

And now for the bad. The crappiest thing about the class is that you pretty much have to get the Celestial/Light tree, and if you don't find an Anorithil that costs you a prodigy. My winner was an Adventure character, but I'm positive I could have beaten it on Roguelike if I had found an Anorithil in any of the T1/T2 dungeons and wasn't forced to take Worldly Knowledge at 42 (which I should have just gotten at 30, its that important). I was floating 8 generics and a cat point from 10 on in order to dump into Light. Every death was preventable with one cast of Bathe in Light, not to mention how I probably would have never been in danger if my minions had been more durable on account of being able to heal/shield them. Bathe in Light as a single ability is really goddamn stupid overpowered on a Necromancer, and the class is a *lot* weaker without it. You need a cheap and effective way to heal your minions in order to get good mileage out of them as a defensive wall. There is no ability that does this in the core Necromancer kit. Essence of the Dead/Shadow Tunnel is both inefficient in terms of turns, and a stupid use of souls. Bathe in Light lets you quickly heal your defensive line on the same turn you yourself are in trouble, and the shield can even be used to protect your husk, which is completely impossible to sustain otherwise. The downside to Bathe in Light is supposedly that you might heal your enemies, but with proper positioning, the minions occupy all of the squares. And as I only ever had 3 points in Necrotic Aura, I could pretty reliably summon the minions directly into squares I was afraid might get taken over, and you can still cast shadow tunnel to guarantee they fill things in. There is no downside to Bathe in Light on a Necromancer. It will do your taxes, walk your dog, and give you a blowjob. Love it. And of course the rest of the tree is Providence, an extra shield when buffing up, and a resource-less heal. I always wondered why Worldly Knowledge even existed, and now I know. It is to salvage your character so you don't just have to start over because you had bad luck with escorts.


All in all, I think Necromancer is an amazing class. Probably not S tier because you *must* get Light, and preferably as early as possible. But it definitely belongs at the top of A where you have it. I was appalled to find there are no other Insane winners in the vault, because Necro is awesome and you should all play one.


Do not copy my build btw, it is bad. If you were to copy it for some reason, at the very least move the 7 points in Starfall and the extra category point in Nightfall all into Sacrifice, and hope you are lucky enough to just learn Light at 0.8 so you can grab Hidden Resources. Starfall did not scale up to endgame levels of damage, although the Forgery likes to use Starfall (and pretty effectively), and the Forgery's version was both larger and significantly more damaging. Starfall seems to get a lot out of talent levels, so being in a 1.1 tree really hurts it. And there is a strong argument for never becoming a Lich in the first place, so that frees up another 11 free points. Personally I just wanted to be an immortal Lich. I mean that is your one true goal, right? http://te4.org/characters/150331/tome/d ... e33011160b


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:09 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:20 pm
Posts: 176
Moved wyrmic up to A due to ice wall combo.

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