ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Updated list.

If you want a class to be listed as Tier S you must stream (with chat on) the full run on Madness Roguelike, without using vault. You may use any official add-on otherwise. Using infinite damage exploits or similar exploits due to programming oversights doesn't count.

I can't be bothered to redo AB/AM.

Shadowblade and Necromancer are the other two classes that can probably do it.

Mex wrote:If you want a class to be listed as Tier S you must stream (with chat on) the full run on Madness Roguelike, without using vault. You may use any official add-on otherwise.

Isn't this basically just requiring more busywork? You can cheat in a livestreamed game quite easily without any way for viewers to detect it. For example, just by modifying init files you could change enemy AI, monster generation, item generation, and randboss talent selection in your favor, or even fudge to-hit/evasion/crit/cancel_damage_chance etc. rolls at essential points. That's not even touching on the possibility of using a specific PRNG seed, TASing the game offline and "playing it back" on stream.

I think if you're looking to effectively verify wins you basically have to use the NetHack/DCSS/etc approach of running the game server-side. But since ToME 1. doesn't have a text mode, 2. demands far more RAM and CPU cycles, that isn't happening any time soon.

Mex wrote: Not listed in any particular order within each tier.

This is the real issue here, it's obviously listed in alphabetical order!

Those rules are clearer then.

Silly question, but is there is a list of 'official add-ons'? (probably answering my own question here, but I take it it refers to the official DLCs [EoR, AoU] and possessor class add on?)

Hmm funny that Bulwark was probably my easiest Insane win.. I wouldn't consider them C level.. but I guess you did your research, so who I am to argue...

In any case, I actually started winning more when I started ignoring some things that seem to be set in stone when talking about the meta. Things like saves and high Con really help me get far in this game...

Okay, requirements for S class are clear, but what is the basis for other tiers? Any specific requirements for class to end up in certain tier?

In particular, why Solipsist/Wyrmic/Gunslinger are rated so low?

And why Arcane Blade/Archmage/Necromancer above Archer and Brawler? I was quite sure that Archer and Brawler are the easiest/fastest classes to complete Insane.

btonassse wrote:Hmm funny that Bulwark was probably my easiest Insane win.. I wouldn't consider them C level.. but I guess you did your research, so who I am to argue...

In any case, I actually started winning more when I started ignoring some things that seem to be set in stone when talking about the meta. Things like saves and high Con really help me get far in this game...

Saves barely matter in madness. the jump from insane to madness is not scalar, but exponential^2

Derael wrote:Okay, requirements for S class are clear, but what is the basis for other tiers? Any specific requirements for class to end up in certain tier?

In particular, why Solipsist/Wyrmic/Gunslinger are rated so low?

And why Arcane Blade/Archmage/Necromancer above Archer and Brawler? I was quite sure that Archer and Brawler are the easiest/fastest classes to complete Insane.

I've managed to reach prides a few times with solipsist (madness) so definitely it is not a bad class but it has SERIOUS flaws. No mindstar mastery from escort ? You can start again No ablative armour ? Basically you should start again No stun immunity (mindstars, tinkers etc) ? Start again ... A good class, for example paradox mage, has almost everything it needs as class talents, no luck required. All you need to do is to play well and you will get far.

List has obvious bias towards arcane but when you assume antimagic is not an option list becomes quite accurate ie arcane blade is much better than bulwark or mindslayer. You also have to keep in mind almost all classes do not have enough damage to finish madness so it doesn't really matter if class is B or D. You can skip a few bosses here and there but you can't skip whole game

Not sure how this list is relevant on insane. Even bulwark is pretty much unkillable when you manage to buff crit shrug off to 100%. Your damage is not an issue. Most bosses near the end have less hp than summoned war hounds or the rich flamespitters on madness. With EoR tinkers and changes in 1.4 / 1.5 it really comes down to preferences. Every class can win.

Does mindstar mastery from an escort matter when you can just buy it?

HousePet wrote:Does mindstar mastery from an escort matter when you can just buy it?

when you betray alchemist escort to zigur, you can take Thorn grab talent and you will get +0.1 to psiblades mastery anyway.
so after buying and upgrading from zigur you'll get 1.3 instead of 1.2, which matters, of course

UPDATE oops i interpreted wrong, of course you can buy it if no escort

It barely matters and nets you like 0.05 bonus stat mod.

ZyZ wrote: I've managed to reach prides a few times with solipsist (madness) so definitely it is not a bad class but it has SERIOUS flaws. No mindstar mastery from escort ? You can start again No ablative armour ? Basically you should start again No stun immunity (mindstars, tinkers etc) ? Start again ...

Well, I got to high peack never escaping and never escaping/using stairs trick as solipsist on Insane. I used some addons (Select your Escorts and Mex start rebalance), but those mostly affect early game. Yet I agree that escort mechanics needs some slight changes, I listed some examples in this thread: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=48522. It's simply bad that some classes require certatin escorts to be good.

But solipsist is not one of those.

Both tinkers and mindstars are in no way necessary to complete Insane, with them class just becomes even more powerful. And Mindstars are not even necessary. Sure, I cheesed for some extra talent/class points using Escorts because Solipsist is actually one of the classes who benefit significantly from every point invested. Saves also worked quite well for me, I didn't get 100% stun immunity but I barely got stunned and 10 cd Wild Infusion with Windtouched Speed helped a lot. Also I got around 100 effective saves each (due to specifically itemising mental save), so CC were not a pig problem either.

The main problem with Solipsist was that it required very specific prodigies to be good (Range Amplification Drone and Windtouched speed in particular). I assume without them my run would become incomparably harder no matter what I used instead. And despite using tinkers I never used ablative armor either. I completed all prides without ever dropping below 35% HP and I cleaned up majority of high peak (literally every vault and cave), but still died in the end because I overestimated myself and tried to take on 3 unique 100+ level dragons in intimidating cave without running (simply because I never had to run before). I killed Atamathon without a problem, and 300+ kills achievement in Sludgenest before going to high peak. All on Insane (though, only Adventure, not Roguelike). It was honestly easier run than my TW Nightmare run (because TW started to produce immense lag in late game due to memory leak and that was frustrating).

ZyZ wrote: List has obvious bias towards arcane but when you assume antimagic is not an option list becomes quite accurate ie arcane blade is much better than bulwark or mindslayer. You also have to keep in mind almost all classes do not have enough damage to finish madness so it doesn't really matter if class is B or D. You can skip a few bosses here and there but you can't skip whole game

I have no illusion about condiring myself good player (I have only one Nightmare win and around 10 or Insane adventure characters who reached High Peak, but due to my stubborness I always die there trying to clear every nook and cranny). And Solipsist felt very powerful to me, not in the least weaker than other characters (like Archmage). That's why I asked what criteria are used to determine class rank. If it's just personal opinion, I'm fine with it.

Is Ogre still really good with the extra slot not being free? It is only useful at all if you were getting 2/2 of the buyable ones to start with...

TW should be an A+ class:
https://te4.org/characters/150226/tome/ ... 3e6fcf35a7

I only vaulted over the mercy dagger, so madness should be possible without the vault if you hate yourself enough to start over or farm Maj'Eyal patrols if it doesn't drop for you.

I've never streamed anything before, but if I did there would have been little reason for that to make it any more believable if you watched me stream it, since TW is memory leak central with the temporal clones I had to regularly close and reopen the game. I didn't save scum, but it would be hard to tell if I did from a stream due to that problem.

Aesthete wrote:TW should be an A+ class:
https://te4.org/characters/150226/tome/ ... 3e6fcf35a7

I only vaulted over the mercy dagger, so madness should be possible without the vault if you hate yourself enough to start over or farm Maj'Eyal patrols if it doesn't drop for you.

I've never streamed anything before, but if I did there would have been little reason for that to make it any more believable if you watched me stream it, since TW is memory leak central with the temporal clones I had to regularly close and reopen the game. I didn't save scum, but it would be hard to tell if I did from a stream due to that problem.

TW is S+ in the actual game but for madness it's unknown since there's been no confirmed TW winners