ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:09 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:13 pm
Posts: 193
Mex wrote:
I still think they have issues in mobility, which I guess can be compensated with movement infusion (the warp gates are just weird...).

The only other thing they don't have is good long range AoE that can corner snipe.

The jumpgates suck if you can't live without autoexplore. Myself, once I got used to them, I found them awesome. And if you can get your effective casting speed at about 50% or below, you can sort of use two jumpgates to corner snipe with yourself (the required setup becomes a bit tedious after a while, though - plus it obviously doesn't work in vaults.)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:01 pm
Posts: 1067
Planning to rate donator stuff, too? From what I understand both Wardens and Doombringers are very strong (top tier for the Doombringer, maybe close for the Warden), Demonologists are not-so-good, and don't know about Doomelves.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:21 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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Doombringers are going to be getting a MAJOR nerf soon. They've got a talent synergy that lets them permenantly shut down anything they can land a few hits on, so that could easily drop them down low. They've got great offense, but I don't know if they've got enough utility and defense to be S rank.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:23 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:33 pm
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Even without the Eternal Suffering + Hope Wanes interaction, Mass Hysteria has huge potential as a defensive mechanic. I think Mass Hysteria alone would be enough to place them in tier A, unless you take into account their mandatory start, in which case they would be tier Z- because you are not going to clear that on Madness.

edit: nvm, just tried Insane and it's completely manageable.


Last edited by donkatsu on Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:49 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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I wouldn't rate them that bad just for a starting zone. Hard as it might be, it is early enough that you could do it twenty times in a relaitvely short period of time.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:02 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:33 pm
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I don't think a twenty thousand attempts would be enough to clear it on Madness. Try giving it a go and you'll see what I mean.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:15 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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I will leave that to people far, far better than I. I've yet to beat the game on normal, let alone Madness, so I'll trust that you have tried and failed.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:41 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:20 pm
Posts: 176
On Madnesss: there are several classes that have been placed in Tier A (if not all of them) that can get through the first half of the game if you try hard enough. Eventually however they can't keep up with the scaling of damage/damage required.

Doombringers can do the starting area on Insane, even on pre-pre-nerf I was able to do so with 2h of trying... However, see point above.

I haven't really played Demonologist or Stone Warden, the former and it's brother will probably be subject to several changes as they get tweaked so it would be unrealistic to cement their tiers right now. Doombringer is definitely Tier A currently, although they have a slightly odd play style due to their defensive abilities being very few (if any), but offensively they are at the other end.

Stone Warden I don't really know, but already having dig as a tool puts them at an advantage.

The tiers share several traits with each other so if you have a decent knowledge of each class you can hopefully see for yourself why they are in that tier.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:44 pm 
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Sher'Tul

Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:01 pm
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Also, I'm surprised to see Dwarf + Skeleton in the lowest tier. I remember consensus being both were pretty strong (skeleton especially). Hoewver, that was a few releases ago...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:58 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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Dwarves and Skeletons are really noob friendly, having good starting stats and really useful racials for mitigating mistakes. However, they don't scale so well on higher dificulties.

In addition to that, they both have pretty murderous start areas. Not Doombringer bad, but...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 5:46 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:59 pm
Posts: 51
Red wrote:
Dwarves and Skeletons are really noob friendly, having good starting stats and really useful racials for mitigating mistakes. However, they don't scale so well on higher dificulties.

In addition to that, they both have pretty murderous start areas. Not Doombringer bad, but...

Which actually gets interesting since undead don't have to do the Fearscape start even if they're of the applicable classes. So Skeleton Doombringers/Demonologists get a better start than most of those of their class.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:08 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
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So while Doombringers might not usually be S rank, Skeleton Doombringers...

What was that? Ghoul Doombringers? Shut up, Skeletons might not be the best but at least they aren't basically the worst.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:19 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 819
Oh huh, for some reason I thought Undead couldn't be Doombringers.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:32 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 523
Cornacs characters have won madness on both marauder and adventure classes -yet they are in the tier that implies that they aren't capable of beating madness even in theory.

Is this because madness was buffed after stition's marauder win (and because adventurer is, well, adventurer)?7

I do agree with cornacs being weaker than Shalore, of course, but this isn't the point.

EDIT. And also I think that a cornac archmage could be able to take madness -at least in theory. I'm still very far from winning on madness/roguelike but I've worked with some cornac archmages who are still alive. Based on my experiences I'd say cornac archmages are actually considerable stronger than their shalore counterparts in the early game (i.e. before timeless): Time shield from level 4 onwards is a game changer -even on madnessque damage. Cornacs who can get light (so that they have decent ways to use their generics) are very very strong archmages although I'm not claiming then to be stronger than shalore come endgame.

Another question: Won't halflings luck of the little folk combined with brawlers reflex defense and defense stacking make for a pretty incredible defence for the duration? I'm not claiming they are madnessworthy, this is more like a general question.

Solid work, Mex.

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Last edited by Mankeli on Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:36 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:03 pm
Posts: 892
The A and below cannot complete Madness is class only, I believe is what the OP meant.

When you get right down to it, class defines you in ToME. Race is just minor modifications on top of that.

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