ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:08 am 
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Wayist

Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:42 am
Posts: 26
I've found rogue to be more manageable than bulwark in insane. Traps are so good actually. It's not even a bad insane class in my opinion


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:48 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:16 pm
Posts: 2263
cksiu wrote:
I've found rogue to be more manageable than bulwark in insane. Traps are so good actually. It's not even a bad insane class in my opinion


aha - i never use traps, so that must be the difference

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:49 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:16 pm
Posts: 2263
Question: does a clear on madness adventurer count here, or only roguelike?

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2016 8:25 pm 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:03 pm
Posts: 103
So shouldn't Corruptor be bumped to tier A, since he has the exact same defense mechanism that allowed Reaver to beat madness (player skill aside, obviously)? I mean, that thought alone makes me think he's equally if not better suited for the task than Necro, if anybody else.


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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 6:32 pm 
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Cornac

Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 12:39 am
Posts: 41
Wait Reavers and Arcane Blades are considered S Tier now ? Did that happen with the new expansion or why isn't Archemage the only S tier class anymore ?


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 4:23 am 
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Halfling

Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:03 pm
Posts: 103
Because some bad dudes have beaten madness with them, apparently.


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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 4:30 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:43 am
Posts: 5966
pizdabol wrote:
Because some badass crazy awesome psycho masochist freak dudes have beaten madness with them, apparently.

Fixed.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 pm 
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Wyrmic

Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:37 pm
Posts: 267
jenx wrote:
Question: does a clear on madness adventurer count here, or only roguelike?


I guess that kind of depends on how the lives are used. In general, for the most part, any build that won on adventurer could win on roguelike unless they somehow used the lives in a way to win some key encounter and although its been a while for me I can't really think of anything like that.

The big difference between the two settings is mostly the player's playing not the build. You simply cannot do something careless like step on a crazy disarm trap or something. Neither settings really changes key fights like say the end fight.

In the end you can die so fast so often a few extra lives means very little. Roguelike is more like a certified "perfect game" its not actualy any harder than adventure on Madness. Either you are within the neighborhood of a good build and good execution or you will die a bajillion times. Adventure can allow you to make a few mistakes like not escaping when you should, but in general you will run into that situation easily 50 times. So if you simply do not grasp the tactics adventure won't save, but for roguelike you need to execute right everytime and/or get lucky.

I suppose an argument could be made builds with a large number of multiple escapes are more likely to get through roguelike, but IMO all Madness builds are incredibly helped by such a thing anyway and its common enough that it is "needed" that even for this the (what is it 7?) extra lives won't even come close to making up for it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:03 am 
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Cornac

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:50 am
Posts: 43
Has anyone really rated the new embers classes? I'd probably put sawbutcher and gunslinger as B tier. Sawbutcher has excellent defense from grinding shield and tempest of metal, given them a fairly significant chance to simply avoid damage and a significant reduction in the damage they do take on top of the potential damage reduction and status cleanses from the furnace tree, while their damage output just with bump attacks is considerable because of how many time they attack. They also have easy escape from saw wheels, the ability to remove sustains, and all of the tricks that can be done with tinkers, which make them a rather well rounded class, though they don't have any real option to become invulnerable.

Gunslingers don't have much for defensive options, with automated cloak tessellation being their only real option, but their damage is so absurd that "kill it before it hits you" is an entirely reasonable defense. A particularly lucky and well built gunslinger can kill the final boss of the embers campaign on normal (edit: it looks like all of this should be possible on nightmare as well. Haven't tested insane yet) with 2 turns to set up and one shot, and just a normal shot can kill almost anything that isn't a boss with no setup at all. They also have a fair number of escape options, between cloak gesture, slip away, and dazzling jump, though it's unlikely they'll need them with their absurd damage output.

Psyshot, by contrast, would probably rank as tier D, potentially even taking the dishonor of weakest class. Molten iron blood is their only major defense, and it isn't all that powerful. Their offense is almost entirely dependent upon being able to land status effects, and they rarely have the mind/physical power to actually land them consistently, and even if they do, the skills to actually use those status effects are extremely expensive and will rapidly deplete their resource pools on top of not doing all that much damage. They perform slightly better if they largely ignore their steamguns in favor of almost pure psi usage, but that just leaves them as an inferior version of the already weak solipsist.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:56 pm 
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Spiderkin

Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:22 pm
Posts: 530
exarion wrote:
Psyshot, by contrast, would probably rank as tier D, potentially even taking the dishonor of weakest class.

NOPE

I don't think -2200 die at HP while having 70 % all resists, crappy but constantly replinishable damage shield, harrasment damage reduction and 20 extra armour all while you are hiding behind Solidify Air wall is all that weak really :lol:. No boni to ammo reloading in the early and midgame can be a bit problematic on higher difficulties because the damage is not that great at that point. It's a tier-B class for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:50 pm 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 787
This list is outdated and wrong in lots of places. If I were to redo the list with the EoR classes based on Insane difficulty, it'd be something like this. Classes within the same tier are roughly in order. Edited 11/1.

Tier S
Paradox Mage
Archmage
Arcane Blade

Tier A
Temporal Warden
Brawler
Sun Paladin
Psyshot
Sawbutcher

Tier B
Doombringer
Mindslayer
Reaver
Marauder
Oozemancer
Corruptor
Doomed
Berserker

Tier C
Gunslinger
Summoner
Anorithil
Solipsist
Stone Warden
Wyrmic
Shadowblade

Tier D
Alchemist
Bulwark
Rogue
Cursed
Archer

Don't know
Necromancer (theoretically very strong but I'll believe it when I see it)
Skirmisher (haven't played it enough, probably in tier C)
Demonologist (haven't played it enough, probably in tier C)

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Last edited by bpat on Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:10 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:57 pm 
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Thalore

Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:20 pm
Posts: 176
Reaver B
Sun Paladin A
Brawler A
Sawbutcher A
Marauder A
Psyshot B

Other than that I agree.

I made some changes to the Tier List following Mankeli's suggestions as well.

Stabya's Reaver win was not legitimate and neither are his other wins, therefore I will not be considering his input further.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:06 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 787
On second thought I agree with mex that Reaver is too high and SP and Brawler are too low. I don't think Sawbutcher or Marauder belong in the same tier as Temporal Warden though.

Edit: Never mind Sawbutcher is ridiculous. I just played one to lvl20 and I was doing upwards of 500 damage in a turn by level 12 or so thanks to Saw Wheels, which has an obscenely low cooldown. Add to that their solid defense and control talents (though no reliable stun hurts) and you have an excellent class. I revised my list to put Brawler, SP, and Sawbutcher in tier A and Reaver in tier B. I am not sold on Marauder or Psyshot being bumped up though, though I'll admit Psyshot is borderline.

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Last edited by bpat on Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:45 am 
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Archmage

Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:39 pm
Posts: 333
Why is Doomed in a higher tier than Summoner and Solipsist?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:16 am 
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Uruivellas

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 1:58 am
Posts: 787
Solipsist has quite possibly the worst offense of any class so it struggles to take down bosses. Add to that their poor healing and defense outside of the Solipsism talent itself and you have a pretty underwhelming class. Summoner struggles against anything that doesn't get wrecked by Fire Drake and has AoE and it's probably the worst class in the final battle outside of tier D classes. Doomed is pretty great because Shadows are very durable and you can resummon all of them every 6 turns with Focus Shadows. Doomed has excellent damage reduction with Merge, Feed Strengths, Deflection, and Ruined Earth, plus the facetanking of Shadows. Also Madness is great at shutting down any foe that doesn't have absurd mental save late game. Damage is and mobility are pretty poor but Doomed is very good at not dying and Psiblades dish out enough damage late game for Doomed to keep up.

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