ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:44 pm 
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Higher

Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 1:00 am
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When looking through my million demon seeds, I realized it would be very nice to have an option to sort them by body slot rather than just by demon type, so you can easily see what seeds can go in each slot. As it is, it is very confusing if, like me, you don't drop any because it's a hassle.

It would also be nice if dead seeds were sorted out of the mass, so you don't try to equip them several times before realizing what's wrong.
And their existence as Arcane artifacts makes "An Apprentice Task" far too easy (just hand him your guaranteed level 1 seed).


On a mostly unrelated note, it would be nice if Psionic Focus artifacts would do something again (and then the item ego could be re-added).
The idea I have for this is to make them act as a gem and mindstar of their tier for psywielding, as well as attacking as the weapon they are.
A similar ego could be added to Mindstars, to allow them to attack as a weapon, if they have not been changed to do so already.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:07 pm 
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Sher'Tul

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For the focuses, just... have them act as focuses. For the talents that change effect if you're wearing a focus. Like the stuff in the focus tree. Focus. Focus. Focus

I think they already do? Or are supposed to or something. Having something act as a gem+mindstar+weapon would be faintly silly, since it would far and away outclass every other possible ego for a mindslayer.

That said, some artifacts operating like that would probably be nice. The gem maul should almost certainly function as both a weapon and, when a gem is slotted, a gem, ferex. Crystalline weapons working as a tier 2 gem in addition to its normal weapon would make sense, too. Stuff like that.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:12 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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The Psionic Focus stuff was removed because it made things completely unbalanced.
I don't see any reason to add it back in. It would just cause confusion.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:46 pm 
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HousePet wrote:
The Psionic Focus stuff was removed because it made things completely unbalanced.
I don't see any reason to add it back in. It would just cause confusion.

The artifacts with that ability should at least be looked at, have the ability removed (to prevent confusion), and possibly compensated in some way (perhaps give a mastery bonus to a Mindslayer tree or two?).


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:26 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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Will do.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:09 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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Is there really no way to balance Psi Focus on a weapon?

For Mindstars, what I do is allow them to attack less often than regular weapons. IMHO a 50% attack rate, and 50% focus bonus, would be a fine compromise from their old "do everything best" behavior.

Something similar could be done for Psi Focus weapons: it works like a weapon, plus some less-than-100% bonus for Focus stuff. Maybe 25%-50% or something.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:20 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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Well mindstars have their own effect now.
The problem was that a variety of talents were useless without a focus and OP with a focus.
Its not that it can't be balanced, it just doesn't have a function anymore. It was balanced by removing it and making talents more equally useful regardless of psionic slot item.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:06 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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HousePet wrote:
Well mindstars have their own effect now.
Yeah but it's kind of horrible.

HousePet wrote:
The problem was that a variety of talents were useless without a focus and OP with a focus.
True, the previous talents were bad about scaling, especially since it wasn't impossible to get an out-of-depth gem or artifact and have a t5 gemstone before level 10.

But, that could be fixed by re-scaling the talents, and making the focus TIER irrelevant, rather than making the whole focus irrelevant.

HousePet wrote:
Its not that it can't be balanced, it just doesn't have a function anymore. It was balanced by removing it and making talents more equally useful regardless of psionic slot item.
I like the idea of talents being useful, but that's possible without removing functionality.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:31 am 
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Perspiring Physicist

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If the focus mechanic was kept, it would always be that some talents were better with a focus.
To balance that, either the talents would be crap without a focus, the talents would be OP with a focus, or the focus would have no significant effect. None of those options is desirable.

In some ways, the mechanic was retained as well. A few talents have altered effects depending on the item in the focus slot and equipping a mindstar/gem in the focus slot increases your mindpower, which will boost the damage from all those talents that used to get a focus bonus.

Its more that the item property isn't used, rather than the mechanic being removed. Or that the bonus now scales linearly instead of cubicly. (mathematical terms used are for illustrative purposes only. the real maths is horrible)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:10 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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HousePet wrote:
If the focus mechanic was kept, it would always be that some talents were better with a focus.
To balance that, either the talents would be crap without a focus, the talents would be OP with a focus, or the focus would have no significant effect. None of those options is desirable.
Those are three BAD ways to fail at trying to balance a talent. They're NOT the only possible options.

Granted, failing is easier than succeeding, but it sounds like you're saying success isn't guaranteed therefore trying is prohibited. I disagree with that premise.

HousePet wrote:
Its more that the item property isn't used, rather than the mechanic being removed. Or that the bonus now scales linearly instead of cubicly. (mathematical terms used are for illustrative purposes only. the real maths is horrible)
Yeah the previous exponential-ish scaling was weird and bad.

Psiblades still has exponential-ish bad scaling, but it's good that you got rid of the Focus / Mindlash scaling.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:59 am 
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Doctornull wrote:
Those are three BAD ways to fail at trying to balance a talent. They're NOT the only possible options.

Other options are?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:01 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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HousePet wrote:
Doctornull wrote:
Those are three BAD ways to fail at trying to balance a talent. They're NOT the only possible options.

Other options are?

The talents would be decent without a focus, the talents would be better but not OP with a focus, or the focus would have a minor but significant effect. All of those options are desirable.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:26 am 
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That would be my 'no significant effect' option, which I should have clarified as a non zero effect, its just small.
The issue is that there is no real counterbalance to adding an extra bonus. Its a separate slot so you don't lose anything from equipment restrictions.
Possibly worse is that you can get the same effect by equipping something with +mindpower or +damage in the focus slot. The focus item property didn't do anything different to existing stuff.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:48 am 
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Sher'Tul Godslayer

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The way the previous focus items worked was to turn a cooldown 5/range 5 talent into a cooldown 0/range 10 talent, and more than double its damage. That was overpowered in some really obvious ways, and it's good that it's gone.

Here's how Mindlash might work with a psi focus:
- If you have a TK slot gem, Mindlash deals +25% bonus damage of the gem's damage type.
- If you have a TK slot weapon, Mindlash deals base damage and has a 50% chance to grant a free attack with your TK weapon.
- If you have a TK focus or mindstar, Mindlash deals +12% bonus damage of the foci's damage type, and a 25% chance to grant a free attack.

All of those are good, and I don't think any of them are overpowered.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:56 am 
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So anything with the focus property is treated as a mindstar?

Yeah that is fine, its just the same as what I've already done.

It is however, a significant amount of work to add and Mindlash doesn't need 25% more damage.

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