ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Analyzing the Wyrmic Class
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Author:  Planetus [ Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

I'd like to see Tornado's movement speed boosted somewhat, but not too much. I'd also love to see it throw all targets it hits in a random direction (i.e. pick a random cell in range 5? and throw them a few tiles along that line) and deal extra physical damage if they hit anything. That all seems thematic. I'd also love to see it stick around the full duration even if it hits it's target. Tornadoes don't dissipate after they hit a wall or two.

Author:  Davion Fuxa [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

Venom Drake Aspect

Acidic Spray - Nothing Really Wrong With It

Acidic Spray is a good ranged single target option for Wyrmics, due to it being a low cost Equilibrium talent that does damage in an element that few enemies resist. It also has a chance to Disarm enemies that it hits, and at Talent Level 5 it transform from a single projectile to a beam attack which can potentially let it hit more then one enemy or just let you hit enemies hiding behind others.

Whether taking it with a Mindpower based Wyrmic or not, this is a very useful talent to hit a stay enemy without having to resort to using an expensive Breath Attack. Much like Icy Skin it is another candidate for change based on what potential direction Wyrmics may be focused to pursue, but it is another great talent as it is now.

Corrosive Mist - Nothing Really Wrong With It

In many ways, a suped up Devouring Flame in the Acid Element - Corrosive Mist is an Area of Effect that does damage each turn in the Acid element. It deals less damage then Devouring Flame but it makes up for this by reducing Accuracy, Defense, and Armor of the enemies it hits. It also gets an increases radius to the area it affects as the talent level increases.

While Accuracy and Defense probably won't really matter if they are reduced all that much with the current scaling system in most fights, reducing Armor can be helpful - especially on heavily armored opponents. Because the debuff also is applied and reapplied every turn an enemy is hit by the talent as well, that debuff will stay on for a few turns so that you can make use of it.

This is a very good talent that can see some good use both as a talent that can hit a large group of enemies constantly each turn as well as for one that can make enemies easier to kill if they are armored up a lot to the point that it noticely makes them much harder to kill.

Dissolve - Nothing Really Wrong With It

The only other Single Target attack available to Wyrmics besides Ice Claw in the Elemental Drake Aspect categories that hits in melee, Dissolve is a heavy damage talent. Unlike Ice Claw it is in a good element so you'll see it inflicting a lot of damage - and with every 2 Talent Levels it will change one of its 4 hits to a 25% chance to Blind on hit; a useful enough detrimental effect.

The talent has very good scaling, with a detrimental effect few enemies will resist, and is probably the most damaging talent Wyrmics really have for dispatching a Single enemy. The only problem with the talent is that it lacks any other comparable talents to it - but that's the rest of the talents in the Wyrmic Class causing that.

Corrosive Breath - Issues Relating to All Breath Attacks

Arguably this talent is in the same rank as Sand Breath - it's awesome as is it just has the problem associated with all other breaths attached to it. The 25% chance to Disarm is fine since Disarm is very useful and not resisted much (if at all) and of course it's in an awesome element so it will cause good damage to stuff it hits. It's more or less fine as it is; outside of resolving Breath issues.

Author:  Davion Fuxa [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

And I come finally to the locked category - oh what a doozy it now is.... Not in a good way.

Higher Draconic Abilities

Prismatic Slash - Costs of Using Attack Too High

A Melee attack that will hit everything around what you hit with an AoE splash that will damage them somewhat; as well as really hit your focused target very hard and apply a debuff to it. Arguably it scales quite well outside of its AoE property and if for some reason you think you can make Saves work you can get those from increasing the talent level - much like how you get elemental resistances from the various Elemental Drake Aspect categories.

Unfortunately, for all the worth that talent might bring it has a relatively high cost to it - and I'm not just talking about the 20 Equilibrium cost. Similar to Lightning Breath, this is and RNG based talent - your attack can hit in 5 flavors: Sand, Fire, Cold, Storm, or Venom. This means you could for example attack a group of Fire Drake hatchlings - only to hit them with Fire damage on a bad roll. The talent also goes on cooldown for a long time as well afterwards.

This is a good talent but the cost of using it needs to measure up for when you roll a '1' on your 1d5 dice and get your critical fail. I'm not against it being an RNG talent or having a long cooldown, but I would drop it's Equilibrium cost to something more manageable - like 10, Equilibrium, the cost of Dissolve. Another thing I would potentially do is make it's burst damage scale with Weapon damage or the Strength stat.

Venomous Breath - Potentially Beyond Saving

This is a fully Damage over Time based Breath, that deals nature damage through applying the Insidious Poison debuff to enemies you hit with it. Unlike many other talents, it increases your Nature resistance, and unlike other Breaths this is a mainly is a breath you would use primarily onlly for the healing reduction factor given by Insidious Poison.

This talent 'may' have served some purpose in the past for its use in helping to prevent opponents from healing themselves, but the recent update that gave Healing Infusions the ability to negate Insidious Poison has completely rendered this talent so ineffective that it holds no niche even for that. It receives no help from Chromatic Fury due to it being focused on the Nature elemental, the Insidious Poison only lasts 6 turns, and the overall damage is not all that much more then the full damage done on a hit by any of the other Breath attacks.

It's possible this talent can be saved - I'd make it so that it just deals a plain Poison debuff and ramp up it's damage output to something like 150%-200% of what Sand Breath might do over the course of 6 turns. But my recommendation would be to scrap this talent - Wyrmics don't need another breath attack available for use, they have enough.

Wyrmic Guile - Potentially Beyond Saving

Wyrmic Guile is the resistance talent that Wyrmics have available for their class. It gives a Wyrmic the ability to slightly resist Stunning or Blind effects, or greatly resist Knockback. It also slightly boosts Cunning which of course helps with Criticals - both Physical or Mental.

Unfortunately as this game as updated more and more, this talent has become weaker and weaker. This is in part due to the amount of Artefacts naturally being added to the game for players to collect - those giving them other means to increase Stun or Blind resistance. Knockback really isn't enough to cry home about since Wyrmics aren't affected enough by it due to having some Ranged abilities, and the Cunning increase isn't that great.

I don't think that this is a talent that can really be saved. A similar talent might be put in place of it but the benefits of what Wyrmic Guile offers now has been diminished to the point that designing a whole new talent would be my recommendation.

Chromatic Fury - Nothing Really Wrong With It

A truly awesome talent, that hasn't dimished over time; Chromatic Fury, the only saving grace currently for investing in the Higher Draconic Abilities Category. Chromatic Fury displays awesome power by allowing a character to minorly raise all the resistances that the Elemental Drake Aspect categories do, plus increases all respective damage output of your various Elemental attacks directly.

Gladly, there is no need to change this talent, and I doubt there will be any need to change it depending on how Wyrmics are positioned in the future.

Author:  Davion Fuxa [ Fri Jun 20, 2014 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

At this point, most my analysis in regards to the Wyrmic class has been in regards to how the class is on a whole, a touch on options and character development, and a look at all the unique class talents that Wyrmics bring to the table. So now I think it's a good time to look at something that indirectly relates to Wyrmics - Dragons!

Wyrmics are of course linked to the various Drakes and Wyrms that a character may encounter in game. One question then is how they might come to be developed - depending on what direction Wyrmics might take.

I'll note that I've touched on this a couple times, but in regards to Wyrmics I think they should have a General Drake Aspect category - or perhaps a General Wyrm Aspect category if perhaps these talents could be limited to older and more mature Wyrms. This would include the 3 Talents which I have suggested should be moved to another category - Swallow, Bellowing Roar, and Wing Buffet, along with perhaps a newly design 4th talent that could be made use of.

Enhancing the Dragon Type Enemies in Game

What I'm sort of imagining here is that perhaps how the talents here could work is each type of dragon enemy you could face would get stronger and more mature talents as you progressively worked up the chain.

The young Hatchlings would remain mostly as they are, just a bunch of newborns without any talents (or perhaps just lacking the breath of their element) for use against you.

The slightly more mature Drakes would get a bit of a buff - now that Lightning Drake might also use Tornado against you, the Sand Drake might Burrow towards you, the Venom Drake might hit you with Corrosive Mist, etc; and all of them would also use their respective breath attacks.

The older and tougher Wyrms would gain access to the expanded talents - Swallow, Wing Buffet, Bellowing Roar, and perhaps the other 4th talent if it's deemed worthy they should get it. Now the Ice Wyrm might hit you with a Wing Buffet, the Venom Wyrm would try to Swallow you, and the Storm Wyrm could let lose a Bellowing Roar; plus they would have all their usual attacks that they have access to for use.

Rantha and Varsha also deserve a nod - Varsha probably wouldn't see a whole lot of change outside of adding in new Fire Drake Aspect talents that might be established, but Rantha would likely now feature Bellowing Roars and Wing Buffets - maybe losing some talents like Freeze in the process.

The Multi-hued element dragon types should also perhaps be given careful examination as to how this might overly change them - since the Multi-Hue Wyrms in particular could be hitting you with their array of Breaths and now have access to the Wyrm aspects along with them to destroy you. However, I'll leave that idea on how to handle them overall to later, since their actions highly correlate to their rapid breath attack spam.

Modifications to the Wyrmic Class

The Wyrmic class of course is directly related to how Dragons work. If it's current sort of category structure is kept, I believe it would more or less start to look like the following:

Weapon Category Options
Combat Techniques
Combat Veteran

Elemental Drake Aspect Categories
Higher Draconic Abilities Category (Locked)
Wyrm Aspect Category (Locked)

Locking up the Wyrm Aspect Category has a couple of notes that should be pointed out. One is that Swallow is getting 'locked up', that might be a bit detrimental to the class since it will hurt it's ability to manage its equilibrium until the category gets unlocked. On the plus side though, it gives a use for Category points because Swallow along with the other talents (like Bellowing Roar) ARE valuable enough that players will be interested in unlocking the category.

Additionally, if some other Equilibrium option could perhaps be added - or if Wyrmics on a whole just killed stuff faster, then the first issue may not be too much of an issue.

Author:  SageAcrin [ Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

Okay, here's something I'm thinking of coding.

In many ways it is minimalist, but it acknowledges a lot of the excellent analysis in here-I just like to do things my own, rather low work, way. :D

Of note is that each first talent in each tree will now grant a pretty powerful passive-the idea is this is to maintain the current highly-ability-oriented play of the class, while still allowing people to have some "crutch" style passives to make the play easier. It isn't entirely great, but it's an interesting take that doesn't have a lot of talent point taxes.

Ice Claw: Upgrade to 1 range cone(2 at TL4). Remove Ice element "upgrade", no one actually cares. Grant +4 Saves-Level permanently.
Icy Skin: Grant 2, 10 MHP%, and Armor Hardiness, in addition to Armor. Reduce Equi cost to 10.
Ice Wall: Cold damage to enemies adjacent(to be figured out). CD lowered with levels(2 per level?)
Ice Breath: New Cold Slow damage type reduces speed by 20% for three turns, 100% chance but must pass save check.

Lightning Speed: +8% Movement Speed per level, passive.
Static Field: Deal low end(20, 160?) Mindpower lightning damage in addition to the current HP life loss(which will remain typeless). Increase radius to 1+TL, cap around 7.
Tornado: Triple speed of movement, remove friendly fire, have radius of blast increase with levels(to 3/4 or so at cap).
Lightning Breath: Have Daze chance scale with TL, or possibly Mindpower. Optimally should be around 50%+ at higher levels.

Wing Buffet: Move to first slot. Change to 1-1.7 WeaponTalentDamage area hit. Remove knockback? Is the knockback a negative? Add +4 Physical Power/Accuracy per level, passive.
Bellowing Roar: Marginally lower damage. Too much of a crutch skill right now.
Devouring Flame: Boost radius substantially(2 or so on average?), make ignore allies, perhaps grant it a chance to remove magical effects every turn?
Fire Breath: New Fire Stun damage type has a 25% chance of Flameshock for three turns (must still pass save check). Flameshock is a physical status, so this isn't athematic. (Also this will always do damage, not just 25% of the time. The stun's just 25% of the time.)

Acidic Spray: +4 Mindpower per level passive. Otherwise unchanged.

Devour: Gain a Deep Wounds effect(Compensates for a Venomous Breath change-give it similar healing reduction). Up to 1.4, 2 and drop CD to 6-it's an off element, make it spammy and useful to compensate. +3% Physical/Mental Critical rate per level passive.
Quake: Lower CD 4/level. Change to WeaponTalentDamage(1, 1.5).
Burrow: Have leveling lower both Equilibrium cost(8 per level, lower cap 10) and Cooldown(3 per level, lower cap 15). Lower duration somewhat in compensation. Make talent instant at TL5.

Prismatic Slash: Change current (low) save bonus to +3% Combat/Mind Speed.
Wyrmic Guile: Reduce all breath CD by 1 per level. (Cap at 6)

Author:  anonymous000 [ Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

Maybe it is too radical to some of you, but I would suggest screw the old wyrmic and remake the wyrmic based on grayswandir's addon viewtopic.php?f=50&t=41604

The original wyrmic is a mess, improving this mess just makes the mess better, but still a mess nonetheless. By improving the talents, you will just have a bunch of useful talents that are not synergising to each other.

The addon, undeveloped as it is, seems heading to a correct direction: More synergies between talents, more passive/sustain to augment the melee. I also like its treatment towards the Breaths. Of course the addon needs a lot of polishing, but seems to me it is much more redeemable than the original wyrmic.

Author:  astreoth [ Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

throwing the whole thing out may be too much but your right that this class is gonna stay s*** until some proper synergy between talents is implemented to get this thing into a cohesive whole and not just a bunch of random filthy parts.

Author:  HousePet [ Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

anonymous000 wrote:
Maybe it is too radical to some of you, but I would suggest screw the old wyrmic and remake the wyrmic based on grayswandir's addon viewtopic.php?f=50&t=41604

Something like this?

Author:  SageAcrin [ Sat Jun 21, 2014 5:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

There's a couple of reasons I have against a complete overhaul.

The first is rebalancing dragons themselves-most class overhauls have a little issue or two there, but dragons are a commonly present enemy and simply gutting the class and remaking it is a lot harder to balance on the enemy end.

Secondly, though... I like Wyrmic as it is. It may be a "mess", but I have seen players clear it with vastly different builds in creative and interesting ways that I never expected.

A class system is there for a reason-so that people can have different gaming experiences, both from one run to the next and so that they can "mesh" with a distinctive class playstyle. Wyrmic may have a lot of "useless" talents, but they all amount to a massive amount of battlefield control and escapes that work excellently at L1, so that they can then invest heavily in breaths.

This is pretty close to an awesome setup where you could invest heavily in a lot of different builds and still have a flexible and interesting character, with some buffs to the talents that scale badly or the few that are pretty useless(Static Field). Just gotta expand "invest heavily in breaths" to "invest heavily in a build of the player's choosing". That was a big part of what I was going for with the Venom/Higher Draconic trees.

Just my thoughts there. I enjoyed my Wyrmic run. :)

Author:  astreoth [ Sat Jun 21, 2014 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

your the one who made those two trees cause venom's awesome but higher could use some work, and I agree wyrmic is valid for winning heck I reached high peak with one on a good run.

but since 1.1.5 there have only been 40 wyrmic winners for reference this is from viewtopic.php?t=41552 which also puts doomed in last place at 26 winners both of these numbers are for 1.1.5 to now.

so yeah wyrmic is pretty close to last place in winners and I'm not advocating the rebuild it from scratch idea here but this class needs work and that's gonna take what its gonna take it may just be a patch job on the existing class like you want or it may be a complete reimagining like housepet wants or anything in between.

though honestly its probably gonna be grays addon at this point since he's the only one putting his code where his design is.

since you guys are examining wyrmic you might be interested in the first post of this viewtopic.php?f=39&t=41571

contains data on how wyrmic is played based on all the level 25 plus wyrmics from 1.1.5 to now.

Author:  Gatewalker [ Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

Just cleared a Higher Wyrmic(random roll, if you're wondering why the hell I'd pick Higher for this class). Had 4 deaths, all relatively early(Bill(I took him on too early, deaths to Bill happen), 2 to Horned Horror, 1 to gangbanged by telugeroths in the time rift). Did not go AM, picked up Stone ALchemy for the lulz at 10, a 4th inscription slot at 20, Higher Draconic with Wyrm Bile and 5th slot at 36.

For the most part, Venom and the Two Handed trees did my heavy lifting the entire game. Acid Spray/Bellowing Roar carried the earlygame, midgame I was building up Sand and Acid breaths, and lategame I started investing heavily in Higher Draconic as well as putting more into the 2H techs that I had just left 1 in early. I also didn't pick up Icy Skin until late because 30 equi cost earlygame was prohibitive and Fungus was more important.

Overall, I felt like Wyrmic has a decent enough earlygame, struggles hard midgame, and was fine lategame....due to my investment in Two Handed more than anything else. That's where all my burst damage came from(that and Dissolve). My breaths and other area attacks had some good status to slow things down at least, and were fine crowd control, but in the latter parts of the east and in high peak....entire packs of enemies were surviving Sand/Acid/Roar combo so I'd have to wade in after that. Fungus kept me alive well enough for that to work, at least.

As far as changing the class goes....honestly, I'm not sure what to do. I played it like a primary warrior with dragon powers and it worked out great for me. The sorcs were a really rough and tense fight but I pulled it out in the end. Master was also really nasty and made me very glad I didn't go AM because I had to teleport away from him multiple times and attrition him down. The prides rolled over and died(aside from Rakshor entryway being essentially hell, but when isn't it?), the slime tunnel bosses also all just got run over, but High Peak itself was threatening enough that I was very sure I was eating at least one more death on the way up several times. After my build really got going(once I had both breaths at good levels and at least 1 in all of the two handed techs), I felt like I always had the tools to handle any situation that came up. Though...rarely felt like I had the *best* tool for the job, if that makes any sense. Wyrmic feels a bit like a Red Mage type, to use a final fantasy reference, jack of all trades can do everything, but does nothing amazingly.

I will note that one big advantage that Wyrmic has is the ability to have Fungus without needing to go AM. Being able to pop a shielding rune while I was low to give my regen time to do its job was a lifesaver more times than I can count, not to mention how good having teleport as an escape option is. As well as being able to use fun arcane gear, I had gloves with Disperse Magic as an itemcast that I used for over half the game.

Sorry if this was a bit rambling, I'm trying to piece together my own thoughts on the class, but wanted to report on my clear since it feels like it was relevant to the discussion at hand at least somewhat. If I have any actual suggestions for changes, I'll post again. Though want it to keep that "red mage" feel, if at all possible. No other class really has that, it was kinda cool.

Author:  SageAcrin [ Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

The 26 figure for Doomed is skewed by the unlock amount. Doomed require reaching the East to legitimately unlock, and have far lower amounts of runs than Wyrmic in part due to the relative unlock points.

This, of course, means the 40 Wyrmic are a very notable figure indeed. You're right, I may need to tone my figures up based on that.

The only other thing that surprises me out of those statistics is that Ice Breath is indeed not taken much, but I was willing to go along with the analysis in here to start with when it came to that.

Regardless, I'll keep that in mind when doing the retools. I was thinking my values might be a little high, but maybe they're a little low...

And yeah, Higher Draconic could use a little work. Part of that is that Wyrmic Guile and Venomous Breath were better when I designed them, DarkGod nerfed them a bit. No big, they were probably out of place design-wise, I just need to come up with compensation.

(Prismatic Slash is my fault though; The analysis here is correct, the randomized element is enough cost and it does not need that high Equi cost.)

Author:  Davion Fuxa [ Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

Hmm, I didn't realize my Analysis matched up that well with the Winner Talents in regards to Ice Breath. While the Breath Attack itself is lacklustre compared to the others, it does have two notable advantages - it builds Cold Damage for Cryomancer (I'm doing that now on the current Wyrmic I'm running) and it sits next to Icy Skin and Ice Wall which a lot of people take (ie, It's Just 5 more Talent Points for most peoples builds). For players looking for a Third Breath Attack it should be a fairly natural choice over Venomous, Lightning, or Fire.

Author:  HousePet [ Sun Jun 22, 2014 2:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

Just to be clear, HousePet likes drawing up different class designs.
HousePet doesn't actually have any preference as to which layout we end up with, as long as it is awesome, fun and thematic.

Author:  Atarlost [ Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Analyzing the Wyrmic Class

I like SageAcrin's idea of attaching little passives everywhere. The Wyrmic structure is fine. My first legitimate win was a wyrmic. (my first win at all was a TW that glitched out and developed permanent immunity to all damage during the paradox mage fight) The wyrmic is the only naturally multi-range tank in the game apart from the dream hammer solipsist and it would be a shame to lose that.

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