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| Sher'Tul |
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 2:39 am
Posts: 1280
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
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Final Summary of Recommendations I would Suggest based on my Analysis
Alright, so at this point most of my analysis is done in this thread. Usually at the end of the long analysis, it’s probably good to summarize the overall suggestions I’ve made throughout so someone looking for a quick direction on what to do has some sort of blueprint from this thread. Some values have been included instead of algebraic placeholders to give more of a guidelines feel here and some thought is given to the effect of using Air Capacity in a fight
If you have read the rest of this thread, I recommend potentially just skipping to to the bits about Air Capacity; that's about the only thing that is new here. The rest is just cleaned up and more thought out suggestions on talents and such.
Drakes: Drakes would be reworked so that they would get access to an Entire Elemental Drake Aspect Category. This would mean for example that a Venom Drake would be running around using all the talents in the Venom Drake Aspect. They may also have access to General Draconic Aspect category as well if such a category were to come into play – this would be where stuff like a unified Breath Attack would be found if that route is taken in designing Wyrmics.
This is a notable bump to them but I feel it’s a deserved bump. It might necessitate forcing Drakes to spawn alone (without hatchings) because they would be significantly more powerful. I think this is more or less fine however and sort of symbolizes how they are a little bit above the ‘Hatchling’ rabble.
Wyrms: Wyrms should be terrifying opponents – they shouldn’t really come off as being a ‘Drake with More Hit points’, which they sort of come off being right now. Earlier in my analysis I suggested that Wyrms could pick up Bellowing Roar, Wing Buffet, and Swallow; which would become a new category for the Wyrmic Class.
An additional talent in the category could perhaps also do something to make their Breath Attacks more dangerous, while also adding something of worth for player Wyrmics to use. Much like Drakes above, they would also have access to the Elemental Drake Aspect category of the respective element that specific Wyrm represents along with any other abilities they respective Drake counterparts of theirs would have..
In many ways this evens out the potential for Wyrms to be much more dangerous – Bellowing Roar for example on any Wyrm would mean having to be very wary of being confused. More so though, it makes Wyrms more definable versus Drake counterparts; now players can easily see what makes Wyrms a bit more fearsome a foe.
Multi-Hued: Now, Multi-Hued Drakes and Wyrms deserve some real consideration due to their ability to spam Breath Attacks. Multi-Hues Drakes and Wyrms blow the rest of the other Drakes and Wyrms encountered out of the water in just how much more dangerous they are. However, addressing the Breath Attacks and their use is probably a better measure for addressing the imbalance.
They should retain their ability to use Breath Attacks in any element, as this is a very big distinction that they have over the other Dragon enemies. I’d also let them have the Higher Draconic Abilities and rework the talents in that category in relation to Multi-Hued Drakes and Wyrms along with use on the Wyrmic Class. Much like the other Drakes and Wyrms, they would have the General Draconic Aspect category or Wyrmic Aspect Category or what not.
Breath Attack Mechanics: I’m not a fan of the current use of Breath Attacks. I feel they can be improved in many ways – in terms of scaling both with how talent level investment works or stats, in terms of them being spammed, or in terms other talents improving them. There is also an issue of their uses against a single opponent – but that issue can also be resolved by giving Wyrmics more Single Target capabilities as an alternative. Where possible, it might be nice to have a ‘supercharged’ Breath Attack.
Below then is a list of some general overall changes for altering Breath Attack Mechanics so that they work in a more likable fashion. Note, not all of these mechanics need to be adopted, but many synergize with each other:
Improving Scaling - Make Breath Attacks Scale with Strength AND Constitution – Reason for this change is that while a player can increase his Willpower quickly, get 60 points invested in Strength by the end of the Mid Game or so, and max out the power of his Breaths with the current system. Including Constitution into this mix means that the player can still do the above, but keep investing in stats much later into the game to keep progressively making Breath Attacks get stronger.
I would recommend changing Breath Attacks so that Strength to scale at 75% of the value it is currently scaling now and make Constitution have an equal effect to as Strength stat does on raising Breath Attack damage.
This should result in a much stronger Breath Attack, but hopefully it won’t scale heavily as early and pick as quickly as the current variation. This scaling system might be lost if a ‘Breath Spam’ Talent is include, due to the prospective power such a talent might have.
Additionally, reason for suggestion Constitution be used is due to the fact that it is somewhat thematic and gives Constitution more of a use in game – at least on Wyrmics.
Limit Spam - Make Breath Attacks Share Their Cooldown – Reason for this is that if Breath Attacks are on the same cooldown, then they can no longer be spammed by Multi-Hues or players; and Breath Attacks can individually be made stronger. This will allow other talents on the Wyrmic class as well to gain more relevance, since players won’t be able to rely on Breath Attacks as much.
Achieving the recommended change here with the current setup can be done by simply making Breath Attacks trigger a universal cooldown when one gets used. Alternatively, it can also be done by putting all Breath Attacks into a unified talent. Finally, an ‘Out of Breath’ debuff could also be an application of limiting spam.
Either of the above approaches is fine, the General Drake Aspect Category could still be locked as I’ve suggested for the Wyrm Aspect category recommendation. Depending on how much work wants to be done, the Wyrm Aspect Category and General Draconic Category could be unified as just one new locked category. Breath Attacks could appear as the first tier talent regardless of how such a unified talent would come into play. I don’t think much of the option of making an ‘Out of Breath’ debuff, but that option could help Shaloran synergize better with the Wyrmic class.
Limit Spam - Limiting Number of Breath Attack Uses – This is an alternative idea to the above on lowering cooldowns for Breath Attacks, however it is also one that synergizes with the above idea through the idea of a ‘Spam Talent’.
My original concept of using the Air Capacity to regulate attacks could be used like a hard limit on the number of Breath Attacks that can be performed. Breath Attacks could cost a certain amount of Air Level to initiate, and the number of Air Level Units and Unit Regeneration could be used to manage the amount of Breath Attacks that are capable of being used in a fight by Wyrmics, Drakes, and Wyrms.
I don’t know how much Air Capacity Drakes or Wyrms might have in game as of now, but I would recommend perhaps maybe the following be coded in for Air Levels:
Non-Yeek Wyrmic – 100 Air Units + Wyrmic Talents
Yeek Wyrmic – 200 Air Units + Wyrmic Talents
Drakes – 150 Air Units + Wyrmic Talents associated with Drakes
Multi-Hued Drakes – 150 Air Units + Wyrmic Talents Associated with Drakes, and Wyrmic Talents associated with Mult-Hued
Wyrms – 200 Air Units + Wyrmic Talents associated with Wyrms and Drakes
Multi-Hued Drakes 200 Air Units + Wyrmic Talents
From this list, some work can be done in regulating how many conceivable Breath Attacks are made by each actor. I’ve suggested that Breath Attacks could maybe cost 60 units of Air and that Bellowing Roar could also be thrown in there to cost 45 units of Air.
Let’s say Wyrmic Talents would equate to 50 additional units of Air. Wyrmic Talents also increase Air Capacity regeneration to a value of 7.5 units of Air per turn; else the value is 5 units of Air per turn for actors without Wyrmic Talents. Let’s say that Drakes don’t have any benefit from Wyrmic talents in regards to Air capacity, but Wyrms have the exact same benefit as Wyrmics; Multi-Hued Receive no benefits to Air from Higher Draconic Abilities.
Every 6 turns enough Air Units regenerate for a Bellowing Roar use, every 8 turns, enough Air Units regenerate for a Breath Attack use. For all comparative purposes, Wyrmics are more capable then Drakes at making Breath Attacks, but are less capable then Wyrms – barring Yeek Wyrmics.
As a comparison, assume that Bellowing Roar may only be used once in a fight (though perhaps it could also be reusable), and that Breath Attacks have no cooldown. Equilibrium failure isn’t a concern for this comparison. Actors are all at full Air Capacity, they are using Air Capacity related talents as much as possible:
Non-Yeek Character - Can perform 3 Breath Attacks within first 4 turns and run totally out of Air Capacity. On Turn 10 would regenerate up to 45 Air Units and could use a Bellowing Roar.
Yeek Wyrmic - Can perform 4 Breath Attacks within 4 Turns from full Air Capacity and have 10 Air Units remaining. On Turn 8 they would regenerate up to 45 Air Units and could use a Bellowing Roar, or alternatively could wait until Turn 11 to perform another Breath Attack.
Drakes - Can perform 2 Breath Attacks within 4 turns from full Air Capacity, and have 40 Air Units Remaining. They do not have Bellowing Roar and thus can only use Air Capacity for Breath Attacks. On turn 8 they could use a 3rd Breath Attack.
Wyrms - Can perform the same number of attacks as Yeek Wyrmics.
Limit Spam - Breath Attack Spam Talent with Heavy Associated Cost – While I dislike Breath Attacks being spammed, it isn’t necessarily undesirable. If following the above example with longer cooldowns for Breath Attacks, an additionally ‘ Breath Attack Spam Talent’ could also be made available for players to use.
Regardless of how such a talent comes into play though, it should have some hard limit attached to it. The above idea about using Air Capacity could be one way of doing this – for example, maybe this talent could be a sustain costing 80 Equilibrium to use. This sustain is instant use, and the result of using it is that Breath Attacks no longer have a cooldown or Equilibrium cost (or failure) but use the above values such; Bellowing Roar could also be included here – no Equilibirum Failure or cost associated with its use but it also costs a little Air Capacity to use.
A note additionally about having a Breath Attack Spam Talent is that this could also enable non-Multi-Hued Wyrms (and perhaps Drakes) to spam their Breaths – thus making them comparable to Multi-Hued Wyrms by rather buffing them somewhat to help close the divide.
Alternative ideas could also be thought up with a sustain or just in general with Breath Attacks. Higher Equilibrium costs could be attached to use of Breath Attacks so that a player (or Dragon) would rack up high Equilibrium and eventually begin exhibiting Equilibrium Failure with Wyrmic talents. Air Capacity could be used to regulate the amount of damage successive attacks would be able to do (ie, your attacks use Air and your total Air Capacity affects how much damage your Breath Attacks will do). Reduced Damage, maybe lack of critical hits, or reduced talent level on Breath Attacks are some other ideas. With a Sustain, these effects would only turn on when the Sustain is turned on.
I recommend if a Spam Talent is included that when turned off it would set all Breath Attacks to go on cooldown.
Passive Talents - Include More Supporting Talent(s) on Wyrmic Class – Taking the route of improving the Wyrmic Class via talents designed to boost the effectiveness of other talents. I think that if a Unified Breath Attack talent is pursued, talents directly affecting Breath Attacks (like SageAcrins Draconic Breath talent) should appear in the same category it will appear in. Else, if we go with the current system then they can be dropped in Higher Draconic Abilities or my recommendation of a Wyrm Aspect category.
A note here to point out is that supporting talents don’t ‘directly’ have to affect Breath Attacks. Just having a supporting talent that improves Mental Critical Rate would apply to all Wyrmic activities, and not just the Breath Attacks.
Strong Individual Breath - The BFB 9000, AKA, the Big - Breath – When used, watch out. This is a supercharged Breath Attack that does enhanced damage.
I imagine that my Air Capacity concept could be used for good worth with such an attack. Perhaps this could a powerful Breath Attack that requires Air Capacity to be made to work well. Let’s say that you take a deep breath and use ALL (or up to 100 Air Units perhaps) of your Air Capacity for a sort of ‘Death Blow’ type scaling attack – 1 Air Unit = 1% damage increase, up to 100 Air Units for a 200% Damage Breath Attack. After using the talent (1 Turn to use), the user would receive a Damage Buff for their next Breath Attack over a small duration. When they then used a Breath Attack (Unified or Individual as applicable) they would unleash the supercharged breath.
In relation to other possible included breaths – like a Breath Spam talent or what not, I would assume this would lock down all Breath Attacks and put them all on cooldown; and maybe also include a ‘Out of Breath effect’ that might allow the player to rapidly replenish their Air Units while preventing Breath Attack related talents from cooling down. Depending on how we want to orient Shaloran around this class, this could be a debuff (and thus removable by Timeless) or a buff (and does Shaloran can’t remove it).
This could be really strong in the hands of enemies, so it may need some built in ‘nerfs’ so that players could strategize when facing such enemies. Some ideas that could be applied if needed could perhaps be a ‘decreasing’ ranged penalty similar to Kill Shot from Skirmisher’s (but in reverse) or perhaps chiming a bit more on improving Daze, we could see stuff like Rush knocking off the buff.
Wyrmic Class Category List
Ultimately, I think that the Wyrmic class design as it currently is works fairly well – in terms of how talents are set up in various categories and there being an individual Elemental Drake Aspect category each type of Dragon enemy; not so much in relation to each individual talent or any correlation they may have between each other.
More design could be done for Wyrmics then what is suggested here. This is more or less a ‘minimalist’ sort of approach to improving Wyrmics outside of directly fixing up the various talents. Most of the changes suggested here are ‘thematic’ followed by ‘Breath Attack Restructuring’.
Of note, only Venomous Breath would really get removed if all these changes came into play. Other affected talents would either simply just be moved or in the case of Wyrmic Guile, upgraded. Technically it is possible to save Venomous Breath however with the inclusion of a General Drake Aspect category.
Something like Swallow or Wing Buffet could get tossed into a General Drake Aspect category, along with the unified Breath Attack and another talent. Bellowing Roar, Rapid Breath, and Deep Draconic Breath could sit in the Wyrm Aspect Category and essentially just turn Wyrms into the masters of Breath Attacks. I’ll note that if a General Drake Aspect category is included, I’d probably recommend that the +50 Air Capacity and Air Regeneration affect I dropped on Rapid Breath be made into its own talent and placed in with the other three talents for the Wyrm Aspect category.
As a note to why I didn’t include a General Drake Aspect category in this design - The Archmage is already one class too many in the number of categories it has. Also, I don’t want to draw too much of the focus in Talent Points away from the Elemental Drake Aspect categories; I personally think it best if they remain the core investment focus:
Wyrm Aspect Category – This Category is Shared by Wyrm Dragons
Swallow
Wing Buffet
Third Tier Talent
Bellowing Roar
Higher Draconic Abilities Category – This Category is Shared by Multi-hued
Prismatic Slash
Second Tier Talent
Draconic Breath
Chromatic Fury
Ideas for Talents in the Locked Categories
Talent #1 – Rapid Breath
Instant Turn Use – Cooldown is 20 Turns – Sustain with Passive Elements – 80 Equilibrium
This talent allows Breath Attacks to be used repeatedly without having them go on cooldown. Breath Attacks cost 60 Air Units and Bellowing Roar costs 45 Air Units when this Sustain is turned on. Breath Attacks and Bellowing Roar no longer cost any Equilbirium to use and can no longer cause Equilibrium failure.
Breath Attacks that are used under this Sustain have their Talent Level reduced by (5-Talent Level – no less then 1/5 Talent Level) and have 30% reduced damage. When the Sustain is turned off, all Breath Attacks go on cooldown.
Passively, this sustain will increase Air Units by (10*Talent Level) and increase Air Capacity (Don’t exactly known what Air Units get regenerate per turn now, so I’ll suggest that it increase the value up to 7.5 Air Units regenerated per turn at Talent Level 5 – this being for any actor using the ability)
Purpose of this talent is to allow Breath Attacks to be spammed. I picture this being a good talent for Wyrms as it would easily help further shore up Wyrms over Drakes – but more importantly if this appeared in the Higher Draconic Abilities then it may lead to the similar situation we have now with Multi-Hues being more horribly powerful then other Dragon types.
However, I could be fine with the below talent idea being given to Wyrms, as it is a super powerful attack talent.
The Passive boost to Air Capacity and Air Regeneration could be stuck elsewhere (such as on Bellowing Roar). It’s just plainly in there to allow more Breath Attacks.
Talent #2 – Deep Inhale
1 Turn Use – Cooldown is 50 Turns – Active – 30 Equilibrium
This talent makes the user draw in up to 100 Air Units over 5 turns to give him the ‘Filled Lungs (#)’ effect.
Filled Lungs (#) – Duration 8 Turns – Removes 20 Air Units per turn - Positive Physical Effect
Users under this affect are not able to regenerate any Air Capacity. When a Breath Attack is used it will do an additional (#)% of damage on top of its normal value. (#)% of damage is equal to the amount of Air Units used in charging up the talent.
After a Breath Attack is used, Filled Lungs discontinues and is replaced with the ‘Breathing Hard’ for 7 Turns which will put all talents related to Breath Attacks and Bellowing Roar on cooldown. All stated talents will be prevented from cooling down until Breathing Hard expires. This debuff has the beneficial effect of boosting Air Regeneration by 20 Units per Turn while it is active. Timeless can remove this debuff.
Talent Level Decreases Cooldown by 6*Talent Level.
This is a supercharged Breath Attack. It hits hard but prevents further use of Breath Attacks. I imagine that Wyrms could also use this but I picture this perhaps being a staple of Multi-Hued Dragons (both Drakes and Wyrms) as it could REALLY make then an RNG enemy that could potentially hit hard (hit you in an element you don’t have a lot of resistance too so they would be harder to prepare for) and caters to the idea that the scariest thing about Multi-Hues is their potentially to rack up a lot of damage with a Breath Attack – except now they can do it on the first turn.
This could however also work as a talent for Wyrms. The benefit for them having it is that you could prepare for a Fire Wyrm by having adequate Fire Resistance to offset the fact that they could really burn you. Only the Multi-Hued Wyrms would be really dangerous, and the regular Multi-Hued Drakes would be much less so.
Talent #3 – Draconic Breath
Passive
Reduces Cooldown of Breaths by 2/3*Talent Level (1 Turn with 2 Talent Points, 2 Turns with 3 Talent Points, 3 Turns with 5 Talent Points). Increases chance to Critical with Breath attacks by 1*Talent Level and gives a 5% Critical Damage Increase.
At Talent Level 4, all Breath Attacks below Talent Level 5 will have a Cone Radius equal to a Talent Level 5 Breath Attack.
This is just a straight up passive that benefits Breath Attacks. I’d drop it in the Higher Draconic Abilities category since Multi-Hued have multiple Breath Attacks – and thus they would benefit from having reduced cooldowns the most.
Fire Drake Aspect –
First Tier Talent
Second Tier Talent
Third Tier Talent or Devouring Flames
Fire Breath
Sand Drake Aspect –
First Tier Talent
Burrow
Quake
Sand Breath
Ideas for Talents in the Elemental Drake Aspect Categories
Talent #4 - Blazing Zeal
Passive
When using your weapon to perform a basic attack or a Technique Talent (Rush, Stunning Blow, Fearless Cleave, Death Dance, Execution, Shield Pummel, Shield Slam, or Assault) you have a 20*Talent Level% chance of hitting another enemy in Melee range for 50% + 10%*Per Talent Level Weapon Damage, up to 100% Weapon Damage Maximum. At Talent Level 5, if no adjacent enemy is present, your chance of hitting another enemy may apply to the original enemy you attacked.
The additional attack takes no extra time to perform. It an only happen once per turn.
It’s quite sad that a Wyrmic character is the Melee Class ‘That Isn’t’. It’s hardly fitting calling the Wyrmic a Melee class when it so badly lacks in the ability to perform in Melee to begin with. I suggest adding some Melee Oriented Talents in and throwing them into the Fire Drake Aspect along with my other suggestions seems like a good fit.
Originally I suggested this talent before, but noted before that it should only apply to Bump Attacks. Personally I wonder if it would really be bad to make it apply to Techniques as well.
Talent #5 – Battle Rhythm (Maybe Rename this)
Passive
Under the effects of the Mediation Talent, your Negative Damage Modifer is Reduced by 10%*Talent Level when using Bump Attacks or a Technique Talent (Rush, Stunning Blow, Fearless Cleave, Death Dance, Execution, Shield Pummel, Shield Slam, or Assault).
Much like for Blazing Zeal, I also suggested this apply to just Bump Attacks. Again, I’m not sure it perhaps can’t apply a little bit outside of those talents. As this is very Melee Oriented, I think it’s good to pair it up next to Blazing Zeal.
In many ways, this is a replacement talent to Swallow from the initial open categories. Swallow would still be available for use from the Wyrm Aspect category if it gets unlocked (which it probably would be).
Talent #6 – Entrench
Instant Use – Cooldown 25 Turns – Active – 20 Equilibrium
You create a trench underneath you to give yourself cover from ranged attacks originating from outside of your trench. Initially the trench only includes the square you are on and the 4 tiles in a cardinal direction around you (N, S, E, W tiles). At Talent Level 4the Trench expands to a radius 2. The Trench lasts for 2 + 2/3* Talent Level
Actors within the Trench take 5%*Talent Level reduced damage from Ranged Attacks; unless the attack originated within the Trench. Area of Effect attacks that linger on the field can be placed over the Trench, but actors within the Trench have a 10%*Talent Level chance of evading damage and effects from those talents.
Additional Note – Change on Burrow
Burrow could be change to include the ability to extend the Trench. Starting at Talent Level 3, a player under the effects of Burrow who placed a Trench can ‘extend’ the Trench by moving from a tile that the Trench occupies to another floor tile that the Trench doesn’t. This would cost 25 – 5*Talent Level Equilbrium.
The Sand Drake Aspect has a really ‘Terrain Alteration’ theme to it due to the likes of Burrow and Quake. This fits in nicely with that theme as a replacement to Swallow while being thematically pleasing.
The idea for this ability is that you can have a bit of an advantage against ranged enemies or mages. If they want to plink away at you, fine, you’ll dig a Trench and then proceed to either dig in their direction or plink them back.
Reworking the Breath Attack Talents (Sand, Fire, Ice, Lightning, Corrosive, *Venomous)
*If Venomous is kept, this should apply to it as well.
Overall, these would be my suggest changes to be made to all the Breath Attack Talents.
Breath Attacks
Equilibrium Cost should be raised up to 20
(maybe less if it is decided that Rapid Breath won’t affect Equilibrium Cost while active).
Cooldown lowered to 8 Turns
(this gets further decreased to 5 Turns with Draconic Breath)
Using a Breath Attack puts rest of Breath Attacks on cooldown
(Reason Cooldown is lowered, to compensate for not being able to use Breath Attacks as much)
Change Damage Scaling to include Constitution on top of Strength
(players have to contend with increasing Willpower, and along with having to raise Strength already they should be very close to the maximum levels by the time they start maxing out Constitution if they build their character down that path)
_________________ Its amazing what the mind can come up with, but it shows talent to make something of it. - Davion Fuxa Inscription Guide - Version 1.4.8 Steam Guide Let's Learn Tales of Maj'Eyal YouTube Playlist
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