Normal/Hardcore renaming

[Grey]

I don't like the naming of Normal and Hardcore. I imagine a lot of other experienced roguelikers don't either. "Normal" mode may be fine for those who want to explore bits of the game, or if you just want an easier ride, but to those of us who feel the single life element is a cornerstone of the genre it seems wrong to classify this as "Hardcore". It's the default setting for many of us.

I don't want to start a flamewar about this, but I have strong feelings about the classifications. I like to think it's not elitism on my part. There may be a touch of that of course, but it's mostly down to what I feel is an important part of roguelike gameplay. Extra lives or savescumming are usually a bad thing in roguelikes because they don't encourage players to learn from their mistakes. They can be helpful to learn the basics and explore new areas, but continually playing on this mode will teach you bad habits. Those who rely on the extra lives too much might end up getting bored of the game, or might get stuck on places like The Master where extra lives don't help much. Classifying this mode as "Normal" may ultimately ruin the game for many people, as without learning from their mistakes they dare not even try Hardcore, and so give up entirely.

Anyway, rant over... I suggest renaming the modes to "Arcade" and "Roguelike" respectively. "Arcade" should give the feeling of extra lives, and "Roguelike" should be fairly obvious. The names don't indicate any preferred default or rank one mode above the other, and instead represent a player choice on how he/she wants to play.

[edge2054]

I agree with Grey and like the names he's come up with. They give a sense of the playstyle each mode offers.

[martinuzz]

I fully agree.
I always play standard roguelike mode, no extra lives.
Since the last update, and the namechange, everytime I start a new character the thought strikes me:
"Extra lives? That's not normal!"

[Final Master]

I, like edge and martinuzz, agree with and endorse the names Grey have come up with.

[Taxorgian]

I would suggest "Normal" and "Purist" instead, the latter implying being a "purist" roguelike as opposed to a modified one.

[Sradac]

"Adventure" and "Roguelike"

[eronarn]

I would suggest "Normal" and "Purist" instead, the latter implying being a "purist" roguelike as opposed to a modified one.

Agreeing with this.

Whatever is labeled as "Normal" is what will be perceived as the baseline difficulty. Being able to respawn is normal for TOME, and relabeling that as a "lite" mode ignores that the game is already pretty hard (both in an absolute sense and relative to other roguelikes). You'll just frustrate a lot of players if you make them believe that the game is balanced around traditional roguelike style deaths.

[PowerWyrm]

I didn't get b18 yet, but what's the difference between "Easy" and "Normal" in b18? For me, one life ("Hardcore" in b18) would be "Normal", multiple life would be "Easy"... easier than that would be probably "Beginner" or "Discovery Mode".

[edge2054]

I also like Adventure and Roguelike. (and still like Arcane and Roguelike though if I had a preference I'd probably go for Adventure over Arcade.)

Maybe I am elitist (if so I don't care) but to me it's not normal to play a roguelike and get extra lives. Not that I'm saying one mode is better then the other I just don't think Tome can really call itself a RL game if the difficulty it labels as normal gives extra lives.

[Grey]

Whatever is labeled as "Normal" is what will be perceived as the baseline difficulty. Being able to respawn is normal for TOME, and relabeling that as a "lite" mode ignores that the game is already pretty hard (both in an absolute sense and relative to other roguelikes). You'll just frustrate a lot of players if you make them believe that the game is balanced around traditional roguelike style deaths.

Being able to respawn is not normal for ToME. It's only for the last month that it has suddenly been labelled as this, and the gameplay mechanics haven't changed from before. For many months the Normal setting was one life only, and the game is steeped in a history of this with its ToME2 and Angband descendants. I personally don't find ToME4 to be any harder than other major roguelikes - if anything it's easier, since it has no insta-death attacks and tends to give the player a vast array of tactical options. It may be difficult to master but that's a feature of the genre. Keep in mind that the game very clearly advertises itself as a roguelike.

Some may choose to have extra lives but I think it's wrong to label those of us who like the single-life mechanic as "purists" or "hardcore". That's like me saying extra life people should be labelled as "Easy" or "Impure". Both modes are viable ways to play, and we should have neutral terms for each.

Hence the term purist. Your view is one of orthodoxy whereas most players are probably a bit more casual about it and think of Tome as something different from you do.

Where does it say that "most" players think that? Seems unusual that anyone coming to ToME and knowing it's history would think that extra lives are normal. Many roguelike veterans would snub their noses at the inclination. Even if that was the case there is still a huge proportion of the fanbase who follow the single life philosophy, and I dislike the idea that we should be termed abnormal.

"Adventure" is a good term as well. I suggested "Arcade" since for me it puts me in mind of extra lives, which is the only difference between it and the Roguelike mode. Overall I just want two terms that can both be accepted as "Normal" and that don't push new players down a single route.

[madmonk]

Why don't you vote on the choices?

Someone should set up a poll...

[Grey]

Okay, will do :)

Edit: Done! http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=24132

[coffee]

I personally don't have much problems or rants with actual naming, also because the desc of the types is somehow clear so it's only a personal taste of naming. However I agree that for newcomers could have more atractive meaning naming. Arcade, Purist are good sugestions. I personally would call to Hardcore "Masochistic" (yes, it's was only a word joking and nothing is intended to say against people who probably likes and have the right of play it).

BTW I play normal but I never used till now or want to use rez option (I always liked the perma-death concept, however nothing against a rare second chance of live like the one give by Blood of Life). So I'd love to see a between "mode" from Normal to Hardcore that recompensate in some way those like myself abstain to use the rez option safe-guard

[Grey]

Eh, I ain't been here long, and even if I had it wouldn't make my opinions or ideas more valid.

I do have strong feelings on this issue and on how it affects the game's status as a roguelike. I understand people want other options and game modes, but I'd be a lot more comfortable with the wording changed to reflect them as equal options.

[Zonk]

I don't think Purist sounds very good, and would prefer Hardcore or even 'Roguelike', but I don't see how it is offensive or inappropriate.

'Purist' does not imply that people who play on other settings are Impure, but is a synonym for 'Traditionalist', 'Conservative' or 'Old School'

Grey, you said...

Being able to respawn is not normal for ToME

history of this with its ToME2 and Angband descendants

It may be difficult to master but that's a feature of the genre. Keep in mind that the game very clearly advertises itself as a roguelike.

How is that not a 'purist'/traditionalist position, as in 'staying close to the game/genre's roots'? Again it's not an insult and sorry if it sounds like that, but it sounds descriptive to me, even if people tend to associate 'purity' with 'being good'.

So while I think 'Purist'sounds a bit off to me, I don't see the offensiveness.
As for the others - 'Roguelike' feels wrong too(it's still a roguelike even with multiple lives, just a bit 'less'), but 'Hardcore' would be perfect - and how is that offensive anyway?
By saying the players who 'like it easy' are not-so-hard? I think they can take that
And the people who play Hardcore, doesn't being called Hardcore feel like a compliment to you? As in 'badass', 'tough', 'challenging'...

Perhaps you are arguing that Hardcore is wrong because this is a roguelike and for roguelike, this is 'normal'. But...maybe roguelikes *are* Hardcore as a genre? So again, I think Hardcore fits pretty well.


I really don't like Adventure also - maybe because it makes me think of point and click adventure games, and I don't associate that with multiple lives(actually, death is pretty unusual there). I think calling Normal 'Arcade' is pretty decent - after all multiple lives are a significant feature of arcade games.

Just hoping we're not asked to 'Insert coin to continue' at death