Balance discussion

[Vanguard]

I dunno if it's too early for this or not, but maybe it'd be helpful to find out what items and abilities people find over/underpowered.

Rings of resistance to any one element seem pretty pointless when there are rings of +8 to constitution out there that'll protect you from everything.

Speaking of +attribute items, those really shouldn't count towards talents. Why invest points in constitution for the health talents when you can spend a few bucks on jewelery and be on your way?

The lightning spell seems like a less reliable manathrust to me, though I admit to not having played with it very much. Is there any real point to taking it?

Staves of might are pretty worthless, especially compared with staves of power.

The value of cunning is really dubious, in my opinion, but I don't know what to do about that.

As for enemies, elite skeleton archers are a death sentence in the early game (maybe preventing them from spawning in the first dungeon would be enough?) and stuns in general seem unfair to fighter characters, since you pretty much have to get in close to accomplish anything, but there's not a lot you can do to protect yourself.

What do you guys think?

[edge2054]

I think Fighters do just fine with stuns if they max out Shield Wall and even if they don't a Fighter should have a good chance of resisting stuns (my current fighter has 77 phys resist).

On that note I would like to bring up talent rebalancing, but maybe that should go in it's own thread. Basically what I'm referring to is Shield Wall and any other talent like it that is worth maxing out. Many of the talents are great at level 1 but really don't need more points invested in them, weighting the top encourages players to fill out talents. I'm not saying every talent needs some pinnacle effect like Shield Wall has, even giving double progression on that last point would mean something or cutting stamina/mana/equilibrium costs in half.

When the first point of a talent is worth more then the next four combined things should be looked at. (Shield Pummel and your brothers, I'm looking at you).

[FACM]

The big point to remember about balance right now:

We're at beta3. Stuff isn't going to be balanced towards 'even and fair'. It's going to be balanced towards 'it works, on to other bugs!'. Notes on what does or doesn't work well is good, but some of that's known already and just isn't as high a priority as getting other stuff in the game.

[Baker]

Speaking of +attribute items, those really shouldn't count towards talents. Why invest points in constitution for the health talents when you can spend a few bucks on jewelery and be on your way?

Yeah, I think that's a given. Obviously only base stats should apply for purposes of unlocking talents, so I think this is more of an oversight than actually intended.

[Canderel]

Lightning is a "beam" not a bolt ... so it hits several targets in a line... But I haven't played a lot of spellcasters... Other than that I also think it could do a little bit more max damage.

[Taxorgian]

Lightning is completely useless by itself (pitiful base damage and the random damage issue), but you have to put one in it to get Chain Lightning -- which is better named the Annihilate Worms spell after putting a few points in it (the initial damage is lousy but it gets substantial at 4/5 and 5/5 even for moderately deep worms).

Of course it seems weird that the basic fire spell can kill red ants....

[greycat]

Lightning is a "beam" not a bolt ... so it hits several targets in a line... But I haven't played a lot of spellcasters... Other than that I also think it could do a little bit more max damage.

Manathrust also becomes a beam at talent level 3 or so, and does dramatically more (and more consistent) damage. Granted, lightning is a beam from talent level 1... so I guess there could be a feasible early-game use if the damage were raised, and didn't have a 20:1 high-to-low-end ratio.

[Gwai]

Agreed: I've been playing straight mages lately and I would definitely tell anyone not to put more than one point into lightning if asked. It's not a bad spell and it can be good to have three attack spells at the beginning, but it's so very useful to pump manathrust and at least one of the fire spells that I don't think one can afford to pump lightening too. Anyway, why would you when chain lightning available at lvl 4 is so much better.
Still, I'm not sure lightning should be changed. My favorite thing about mages right now is the way you have to decide what to put points into. There are downsides to any choice. Lightning is not a terrible spell and I wouldn't like to see mages choices simplified.

I very much like the idea with ring power being based on material. That would be the necessary nerf without being too too nerfy.
I actually think it would probably be fine if rings counted toward the power bonus if the rings were nerfed. It's only outrageous right now because it's too easy to find a +10 ring of con! A +2 ring of con just wouldn't change things that much.

[darkgod]

I'll probably up a bit the min damage.
Also in next beta manathurst is a level 4 spell, the first arcane one is arcane power which becomes a sustainable spell.
Archmages start with flame, lightning and arcane power

[darkgod]

Oh and lightning does actually have a higher max damage than manathrust.

As for balance yes it's not THE most worrying thing right now but I'd like to keep in in check as we go

[Taxorgian]

Perhaps energizing rings don't need truly nerfed, but rather regenerate one mana point per turn per metal quality? So an energizing copper ring gives 1 mana per turn, steel gives 2 etc.? Of course that pretty energizing mithril ring is still awfully nice, but mithril stuff should be nice anyway.

On that topic, it seems backwards to me that the best quality metal should also cause the greatest fatigue. After all, one of the things mentioned in The Books (tm) is that the hobbits could manage to wear mithril mail due to it being so light and flexible. I understand trying for balance but it just seems... weird.

[darkgod]

Yes it's for balance :/
But you'll notice most of the time mithril has the same fatigue as galvorn but for better stats

[Baker]

You're absolutely right, this is not the time to be overly worried about balance. There is still new content and classes to be added. Balancing everything now really only stalls progress towards a more complete game, and we'd just have to balance everything all over again when the world is more fleshed out.

Still, it doesn't hurt to talk about what's broken either. Balance always takes a few tries, so the sooner DarkGod can get to experimenting (and probably annoying a lot of people in the process ) the sooner we can all get a feeling about what works and what doesn't.

Yes it's for balance :/
But you'll notice most of the time mithril has the same fatigue as galvorn but for better stats

I'm not sure how else you could make the stronger metals work... When you need more protection you need more protection, there's no point in having an ultra-light material with the same protection as iron when that's just not what you need.

Maybe high-class armors could come in a "light" and "heavy" variation? That way, you could get the best of both worlds, and it would be a nice thing to have for more Dexterity-focused characters.

[Antagonist]

Well, as for mithril... I think you can still have it balanced.

Make mithril need lower fatigue, lower str etc, but... not as good as other higher level metals. Basically have it as a higher level metal for mages and rogues and archers, but have the mellee classes get access to some MUCH better metals that do more.

This way it will keep with what the books say Mithril is (pretty damn strong light metal), just introduce even stronger heavier ones iow.

[Vanguard]

What do you all like to use for area of effect spells? I've been taking fireflash mostly because it was amazing in T2, and while it's alright in T4, that's all it is - just alright. Anyone have a recommendation?

Also in next beta manathurst is a level 4 spell, the first arcane one is arcane power which becomes a sustainable spell.

Interesting. Do you have plans to improve either spell to make up for these changes, or do you think they'll still stand on their own? In beta 3 I think you'd be crazy not to take them.

Balance always takes a few tries, so the sooner DarkGod can get to experimenting (and probably annoying a lot of people in the process ) the sooner we can all get a feeling about what works and what doesn't.

Yeah, the purpose of this thread isn't to be all "DG WE'RE ALREADY THREE BETA VERSIONS IN AND THIS ISN'T PERFECT YET WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU," it's to help figure out what works and what doesn't so when he does get around to balancing he'll have everyone's feedback ready to go.