Lets talk... About Necromancers

[random417]

OK, so I took quite a bit of time off of ToME, at least a year i believe. I love so much of what's happened recently, especially class reworks, the new archer stuff is way more fun to play.

I was hopeful and excited to try the necro, hoping that I'd see something better than it was. Necro is one of my favorite classes in just about anything. Absolutely nothing had changed from the last time I played. Now, that's ok, but I can see people discussing what changes are needed, and I figured I'd throw out my thought, as I hadn't seen it.


I see the people talking about how souls are a non renewable resource, and thematically that's the way they should stay, and to a point I agree. However, for most base undead, thematically speaking (in game, it would be those created with minions and the like), if you really stop to think about it, they don't have souls exactly, more... animating force.

For more complex raises (husks mostly) they may have a soul.

Here's my proposal, and keep in mind I don't know anything about balance or the inner workings of the game.

Make Necros a dual mana/vim class... Now, hear me out. Vim fits for vital force, enough to raise mindless or nearly mindless undead. Many of the existing defiler talents fit thematically, and necro would play way different than all the current vim based classes. create minions and several of the other spells can either go both mana and vim, or straight vim, and thematically it would work.

Husks and the like should be re-summonable within reason, and have a mechanic for reanimating that maybe looks somewhat like possessors? They also may fit better as a type of shadow or wraith, soul without body.

lichform... rather than giving a seperate tree, some form of passive or on hit vim regen (of course requiring living beings around or to hit) would be the most likely option. I could see it granting a blighted summoning like boost to existing summons as well, or a retch ability or the like. If you do like an additional tree, maybe the plague tree? there's a lot of milage to be had in it. I could see it as a generic though... torment maybe???

I don't have all the specifics thought out, but if people that know enough about the game want to debate, you get the general idea I'm sure

[Dopaminka]

Myself I'd rather see another soul-based class, even if it's Razakai's DK balanced for mainline.

Also it's untrue that nothing has changed for necros, 1.5 had:
Necromancer's Dark Empathy now helps minions not kill each other
Level 3 and up of Aura Mastery has a 25% chance to return souls from minions on death if they're inside the aura
Animus Hoarder is passive to reduce mana and soul strains early
Chill of the Tomb has a 100% chance to create a wisp if it kills a friendly necrotic minion while Will o' the Wisp is sustained for synergy
Lowered overall mana costs and cooldowns on Necromancer's non-locked trees slightly to prevent as many dead turns

[Delmuir]

I've been toying with a few ideas for a necro (some of my old ones have finally been adopted but not many):

1. The constitution problem, namely how it interacts with the Sacrifice shield, i.e., you don't really want more positive life. My solution is to make any life gained from constitution be permanent negative life IF Blurred Mortality is at level 5.

Then I think the necro, more so than any other mage class, should really want additional constitution because being a necro feels like it ought to be physically taxing.

Thus, I also think that the entire Necrosis tree should have minimum constitution requirements. Nothing huge, but enough...

2. I still really think there ought to be a unique generic for the class, and I've offered up numerous ideas on it.

3. Undeath Link is still arguably the worst skill in the entire game and I hate, hate, hate it. Damn near ANY change would be better, although I liked my damage and healing sharing idea.

4. Impending Doom... it used to stop all healing for ten turns and now it does 80%. I get why they did it but it irks me and so I offer a compromise of sorts. Have it reduce healing 100% on its first turn and then decrease by 5% each turn thereafter until it's at 55% on its last turn. This would average out to 77.5% but would front load it such that you get that initial benefit.

5. Some sustains should require 1 soul... I think Blurred Mortality and Lichform definitely should, but maybe also Vampiric Gifts. This would encourage investing in Animus Hoarder a bit more.

Additionally, I think Animus Hoarder should be back loaded a bit such that you gain 1 additional soul at level 3,5,7, and so on, in order to off-set the added shortage issue.

6. Undead Explosion... a largely wasted talent. I suggest adding bleeding and disease effects, as well as a slightly higher max damage. However, I think the mana cost ought to be closer to 50 than 30.

7. Minions ought to be a bit more "taxing" on the necromancer than they are, namely each minion currently active should cause some small amount of fatigue.

Anyway, that's just a few of my thoughts...

[Micbran]

why would you ever want to nerf necro

[Kruzifixxion]

I've been toying with a few ideas for a necro (some of my old ones have finally been adopted but not many):

1. The constitution problem, namely how it interacts with the Sacrifice shield, i.e., you don't really want more positive life. My solution is to make any life gained from constitution be permanent negative life IF Blurred Mortality is at level 5.

Then I think the necro, more so than any other mage class, should really want additional constitution because being a necro feels like it ought to be physically taxing.

Thus, I also think that the entire Necrosis tree should have minimum constitution requirements. Nothing huge, but enough...

2. I still really think there ought to be a unique generic for the class, and I've offered up numerous ideas on it.

3. Undeath Link is still arguably the worst skill in the entire game and I hate, hate, hate it. Damn near ANY change would be better, although I liked my damage and healing sharing idea.

4. Impending Doom... it used to stop all healing for ten turns and now it does 80%. I get why they did it but it irks me and so I offer a compromise of sorts. Have it reduce healing 100% on its first turn and then decrease by 5% each turn thereafter until it's at 55% on its last turn. This would average out to 77.5% but would front load it such that you get that initial benefit.

5. Some sustains should require 1 soul... I think Blurred Mortality and Lichform definitely should, but maybe also Vampiric Gifts. This would encourage investing in Animus Hoarder a bit more.

Additionally, I think Animus Hoarder should be back loaded a bit such that you gain 1 additional soul at level 3,5,7, and so on, in order to off-set the added shortage issue.

6. Undead Explosion... a largely wasted talent. I suggest adding bleeding and disease effects, as well as a slightly higher max damage. However, I think the mana cost ought to be closer to 50 than 30.

7. Minions ought to be a bit more "taxing" on the necromancer than they are, namely each minion currently active should cause some small amount of fatigue.

Anyway, that's just a few of my thoughts...

Why try to nerf one of the worst classes in the game? They're already pretty tedious to play

[Delmuir]

why would you ever want to nerf necro

I DON'T want to nerf the necro. I have a long history of proposed adjustments and full on rebuilds. These are just my latest thoughts... all to be considered in aggregate with "x" set coming together to make a complete class.

I am in no way suggesting these changes as stand alone changes, but even if I were, I noted the addition of a generic class and #1 and #3 are definitely not nerfs.

You, Micbran, in particular have been around for my various attempts so you ought to know better than to think that my aim is to nerf the class.