Alchemist Rework Ideas

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darthsawyer
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Alchemist Rework Ideas

#1 Post by darthsawyer »

As instructed by Shibari and Stunt I am making a post about this here. Alchemist is getting looked at/reworked at some point, but work has not yet started on it. Here on my ideas on how to improve Alchemist, feel free to add your own. Take note that part of the design principle of Alch is that it is an easy class for beginners to play.

The primary problems of Alchemist:
  • * On higher difficulties the Golem has little use; it dies quickly and while dead every point invested in a golem talent does nothing.
    * Many high threat creatures like Worms that Walk are immune to certain elements, alchemists that specialize in that element are forced to turn off their infusion to combat them as they have no built in resistance penetration.
    * Lack of mobility. Most classes have access to a ground targeted movement spell or teleport, all an alchemist has is Golem Portal and Gem Portal, both of which are situational. Gem Portal is pretty great, but nowhere near as good as Rush or Phase Door.
    * Limited category choice. Alchemist has only 5 unlocked and 2 locked class categories, along with 2 unlocked 1 locked generics. Most classes have at least 3 locked class trees, and while less generic trees allow you to invest heavily into escort trees, that relies on both getting the escorts you want and managing to save them. The 0.8 mastery also reduces the effective value of those extra unused generics.


Now for my proposed solutions to each of these problems:

Golem fragility and loss of investment on death
The Golem's primary reason for being so fragile is the small number of slots with which you can itemize. It is often difficult to get the defensive stats you need in only 3 slots + 2 gems. Furthermore, the Golem's very low stat gain per level prevent you from investing much in anything that isn't magic or strength, even the extra 4 hp + healmod from con could be significant. To fix the fragility problem, I suggest stats per level for the golem is increased from 2.0 to 2.5, and at least the addition of Hat, Belt, Cloak, and Tool slots. Lore wise I see no reason a Golem couldn't wear those items while gloves/rings wouldn't fit Golem hands and a Golem's Feet should function as boots innately. I excluded Necklaces since they pair with rings, and lanterns because I am unsure how a secondary light source without shared vision would work. I have a feeling that granting Golems ALL item slots would be too powerful. As for the loss of investment on death, lowering the cooldown on Supercharge Golem or giving a small percentage of the Golem's stats to you even while dead could ease the loss of power while Golemless.

Resistance Penetration
Being forced to toggle off your infusion to fight high threat creatures significantly reduces your damage against these creatures, exacerbating the danger of these encounters. Unless you get lucky and find gear with high damage penetration, all the investment in your selected damage type is eliminated. 5 points in an infusion provides 25% damage, and staves grant roughly 15-25% at the point where immunity comes into play, without taking into consideration the bonus from other slots. Alchemist already struggles with single target damage, losing 50% of your damage output as an Acid alchemist against a Worm that Walks or Randboss Corrosive Worm can easily spell your death. My suggested solution to this is to add resistance penetration to each infusion at 3 raw points of investment, that either scales with spellpower or simply scales with talent level. Alternatively, making Channel Staff instant cast for Alchemists (with a cooldown) would be a less powerful solution.

Lack of Mobility
With sufficient prep time digging zig zag corridors for corner sniping, Gem Portal is a sufficient escape. However, many level layouts significantly reduce the effectiveness of Gem Portal, especially when first entering a floor when you may not be adjacent to a wall. I propose that gem portal is changed to function like the dwarf racial Stone Walking allowing you to target a wall up to X grids away, perhaps costing additional gems per square if necessary. Another possibility is the addition of a talent in a new category that functions similar to a movement infusion. I would suggest a "haste potion" talent, but I know that conflicts with the lore. Perhaps crushing alchemist gems to partially animate the earth beneath you to move you to a location or hasten your movespeed? A completely broken suggestion would be a sustain like the Never Stop Running prodigy that costs a bunch of alchemist gems per tile moved lol.

Limited Category Choice
Alchemist doesn't have much in the way of versatility. There are only a few spells worth taking outside your chosen element in the infusion trees (Smoke Bomb, Ice Core, Dissolving Acid) but beyond choosing one of the 4 elements most Alchemists are built the same. It is important not to overwhelm new players with too many options, so I suggest some hidden locked or unlocked categories be added. This would both increase your options while also being hidden to new players.
Tree ideas:
  • A Poison category. Given that Alchemists are often associated with poisons, this would be a sensible addition. Unlocked for all characters by siding with the assassin lord?
    A Physical category that more directly manipulates gems or earth. Manipulating the terrain by growing crystal walls, bombs laced with shrapnel dealing additional physical and bleeding damage, all reasonable possibilities. Unlocked by defeating Vor, the Grand Geomancer.
    A Light category would be really cool, focusing on reflecting and refracting light through gems. This might be way too complicated for the easy design goal, but growing crystal mirrors from the earth that reflect a light beam spell from the same category to all other mirrors in range would be awesome. Alternatively, making the Light infusion deposit a highly reflective dusting of gems on all enemies hit by your bomb, making the light spell(s) in the tree bounce to all dusted enemies could also work.
    A category that has you don your Golem as (power) armor with a sustain. Increased movement speed via Golem legs would fit here.
    The lore states that Alchemists do not use magic that perverts nature, a Nature tree would be neat. Obviously while Antimagic Alchemist works in the lore, I don't think it could fit into the class, much less a single category. Animating trees and stuff would be cool.
    I know a Potion category doesn't fit the lore, perhaps an "herbal remedy" tree? Focusing on buffing and healing, enhanced mobility via movement increasing stimulant could fit here as well. Could also work as a Generic tree, I recall the Arcanum addon has something like this though I don't like how they did the category.
    Crystal Alchemy utility generic tree. The above mentioned growing crystals from alchemist gems could fit in here. I'm thinking being able to create your own walls would combo quite nicely with Gem Portal. Too far away from a wall to gem portal? Create a crystal wall in a line, now you can. Enemy melee closing in fast? Sharp shards of crystal will slow your enemy's approach. A version of Stone Wall would probably be too powerful, Stone Wall is an amazing spell.
That's all I have, please post any of your suggestions below! I'll add any I like to this main post so it is easier for Stunt and Shelia to look though.

ster
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#2 Post by ster »

- remove the really weird ammo system since it's effectively infinite anyway

- make crafty hands baked in instead of requiring a prodigy

- maybe move all the redundant infusions/related golem abilities into one tree

- make bomb damage competitive with weapon damage since it's both awful (due to being based off spellpower) and on a 3 turn CD
<Shibari> You're full of shit
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Razakai
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#3 Post by Razakai »

One definite thing that'll be done is merging infusions into one talent like new chants so that opens up a bit of room. Merging the mutually exclusive stuff into one tree (e.g. all the golem buffs are one talent) is a good idea. In general the golem should be a lot tankier - not just by giving it more life or something, but give it a defensive mechanic so it might actually survive even vs on higher difficulties for a few turns. Stuff like how temporal hounds unravel was a good idea.
Regarding their damage you could give them a staff technique tree - they're the only class that starts with staff training, so giving them some more talents with that could give them more things to do inbetween bombs.
I decided against it but I did sketch out some talent and category ideas. Basically locking all the elemental trees, giving new unlocked ones and changing a bunch of talents. So might be something usable. https://hastebin.com/atofojirik.vbs

Davion Fuxa
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#4 Post by Davion Fuxa »

I'll throw up a link to the old thread I also made in regards to Alchemists. Maybe some ideas can be gleamed from it. It is mostly in a similar pattern to the one I did on Wyrmics.

Analyzing The Alchemist Class
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RoaldHoffmann
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#5 Post by RoaldHoffmann »

This is a relatively minor gripe but would it be possible to remove the 1 turn cost of switching control between your player and the golem? I feel it's unfair to punish the player for wanting to micromanage their summon, but I might be alone on this - hopefully not. If I want to check my golem's inventory, I have to take control of it first which costs a turn. If the intent is to prevent the player from transferring items between player and golem inventories indefinitely, perhaps a turn could be spent when using the "transfer to party" option only?

HousePet
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#6 Post by HousePet »

I'm not keen on merging all the X Infusion talents into one talent. That just ends up with a talent which you invest in to increase all damage. So its pretty much just filler. If you go down that route, you may as well just attach the element changing talents to Throw Bomb and buff everything slightly. Then you don't lose out on the damage boost when you need to use a different element.

While I would be sad to see the option of investing in specific elements being removed, I don't think Alchemist should be able to mono-element like Archmage can. And there is scope for focussing your investment in bombs, golem, alchemical magic or staff combat.
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voltteccer
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#7 Post by voltteccer »

give the golem all of the player's resists and armor equal to the player's current spellpower, as long as the player is alive

the only downside is that this might cause alchemist rares to matter

Mel
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#8 Post by Mel »

darthsawyer wrote:A category that has you don your Golem as (power) armor with a sustain. Increased movement speed via Golem legs would fit here.
This needs to happen since 1/ it's both awesome and ridiculous 2/ it would somewhat solve the issue of the golem being terrible in higher difficulties than normal. Adding to the tree some fatigue-reducing talent could make Alcs into some kind of Reaver-like spell / melee hybrids focused on Staff Combat and heavy armor. Alternatively give them dex-focused trees and lead them through the light armor route, but I think Alcs desperately need Combat Training unlocked either way. Staff Combat makes no sense without it.
darthsawyer wrote:I know a Potion category doesn't fit the lore, perhaps an "herbal remedy" tree? Focusing on buffing and healing, enhanced mobility via movement increasing stimulant could fit here as well.
Which bits of lore state that Alcs and potions don't mix? There's a whole questline dedicated to the Brotherhood of Alchemists based around nutjobs gathering potion ingrediens :/

(Anyway they need something like this too, I'd love to see them having some kind of equivalent to Tinker salves. Or they could have a tree with mobility / healing abilities working similarly to Gem Portal. I want to be able to mix things together with Alcs, not just blow up stuff.)
ster wrote:make bomb damage competitive with weapon damage since it's both awful (due to being based off spellpower) and on a 3 turn CD
Seconding this too. Maybe give them some kind of Shoot equivalent that does single target gem damage on a 0 CD while keeping the Michael Bay blasts on a 3 CD. Channel Staff isn't that great and having to use it 2 turns out of 3 is pretty boring.

Oh and please unless there's a very good lore reason tying Stone Alchemy to Earth / Stone magic please rename it Gem Alchemy or Gemstone Magic or something like that, it triggers me everytime I see it.

Mordy
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#9 Post by Mordy »

HousePet wrote:I'm not keen on merging all the X Infusion talents into one talent. That just ends up with a talent which you invest in to increase all damage. So its pretty much just filler. If you go down that route, you may as well just attach the element changing talents to Throw Bomb and buff everything slightly. Then you don't lose out on the damage boost when you need to use a different element.

While I would be sad to see the option of investing in specific elements being removed, I don't think Alchemist should be able to mono-element like Archmage can. And there is scope for focussing your investment in bombs, golem, alchemical magic or staff combat.
Well on the other hand I do like the idea of Alchemist having the tools to be really multi element. After all, he's like the only mage that can switch it's main attack element by changing a sustain so it'd be nice if that mecanic could come into effect somewhere.

What about making the "bomb infusion" talent line something like :
- bomb infusions. gives you the 4 sustains (fire, acid, cold, lightning) and make them improve the element damage depending on how much you invested in the main talent
- acid armor
- frost armor
- something else armor

And to be slightly original, you make it like for Mindslayers where you don't actually need to learn them in sequence. As long as you know the bomb infusion talent and have the required level/stats you can learn the armor talents

Another option would be to give the alchemists a tool to make them slightly more independent on their gear element bonus. Something like :
- bomb infusions
- acid armor
- frost armor
- elemental focus : you use your strongest elemental damage bonus instead of [20..66]% of your current attunement element bonus (applies only to acid/fire/lightning/cold)

No damage pierce though, because they should be able to switch elements around to exploit weaknesses.

Remains the problem of high all res enemies?

darthsawyer
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#10 Post by darthsawyer »

Mel wrote:
darthsawyer wrote:
darthsawyer wrote:I know a Potion category doesn't fit the lore, perhaps an "herbal remedy" tree? Focusing on buffing and healing, enhanced mobility via movement increasing stimulant could fit here as well.
Which bits of lore state that Alcs and potions don't mix? There's a whole questline dedicated to the Brotherhood of Alchemists based around nutjobs gathering potion ingrediens :/
Potions are too rare for the player character to be able to create. Either Shelia or Shibari said this in chat when we were discussing it. There are only 4 alchemists capable of creating potions in all of Eyal after all. The only way I see a potion based tree being added is if you have an alternate reward for the Alchemist quest which unlocks a Potion category, forgoing the usual Invulnerability/etc reward for an apprenticeship. If being exclusive to Alchemist and only as a quest reward I'd like to see something like t1 Remedy (healing infusion), t2 Haste (movement infusion), t3 passive potion intensity.duration, t4 Clarity (heroism infusion). Of course a category providing a movement infusion and a heroism infusion equivalent might be a little broken

astreoth
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#11 Post by astreoth »

[/quote]

Potions are too rare for the player character to be able to create. Either Shelia or Shibari said this in chat when we were discussing it. There are only 4 alchemists capable of creating potions in all of Eyal after all. The only way I see a potion based tree being added is if you have an alternate reward for the Alchemist quest which unlocks a Potion category, forgoing the usual Invulnerability/etc reward for an apprenticeship. If being exclusive to Alchemist and only as a quest reward I'd like to see something like t1 Remedy (healing infusion), t2 Haste (movement infusion), t3 passive potion intensity.duration, t4 Clarity (heroism infusion). Of course a category providing a movement infusion and a heroism infusion equivalent might be a little broken[/quote]

the 4 alchemists from the brotherhood quest are hiring you to help them get into a guild full of alchemists who also make potions and recruit one more potion making alchemist to their ranks a year, plus tannens notes from the tower quest explicitly say he illegally sold potions from anglowen to build the funds for his mad alchemist lab in last hope.

potion making is likely only slightly rarer than alchemy in general is in the allied kingdom which is actually pretty rare outside anglowen and the shaloren lands cause of the whole roving bands of mage lynchers going unopposed thing.

could say adventurer alchemists can't do that kinda stuff without a proper lab but they don't have a flying fortress.

also we should totally do the golem power armour thing seriously we can already unlock making a drolem its simply ridiculous we cant already rain death from above while riding our giant dragon golems WAS SITTING ON A GIANT FLYING STONE LIZARD TOO ABSTRACT A CONCEPT WHY DO I EVEN NEED TO SAY THIS.

also we could just abandon infusions entirely and give + element damage for investing in the element alchemy trees free up room for more intresting talents.

stormbringer
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#12 Post by stormbringer »

wearing a golem is part of the metal alchemy tree. so at the very least the code is already worked out there if it can be borrowed. poison tree exists in add ons. metal shard infusion is part of the metal alchemy tree :)

you could make a series of trees for the alchemist and or for the golem itself to

allow expierienced alchemists/golemancers to increase the slots by refining the golems structure.
allow experienced golemancers to create variant golems (much like the drolem) that have additional powers suggested by thier form or story. such things as winged golems, similacrums, homononculi, animal or advanced tech androids such as replicants and other things drawn from legends, fiction, fantasy or mystical lore.

in fact i think i will just cut and paste my previous posts on this topic to save time:
If i may offer a few suggestions or requests...

1. The golem should get at least a few more talent points generic points and category points to make use of those locked talent trees. these should ideally be rewards for leveling rather than a one time benefit.

2. The golem's master or mistress could use a few new talent trees. one could extend golem control /roaming range. Another talent could be Golem automated scouting. you can just order the golem to do simple tasks like scouting and mapping. have AI handle it. Another could add the missing equipment slots. this could be rationalized by another talent that refines the golem's construction so that boots, gloves, rings, amulets and so on can fit better or the Alchemist can just learn to modify such items so they fit a golem; golem, advanced golem, android, synthetic biological entity or similar levels. fictional examples of synthetic biological entities are alias of the azure bonds, replicants from the novel/movie Bladerunner and synthetics from the movie Aliens or Guri from star wars. of course RPG golems need to be more durable like guri was. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Guri
There could be stat adjustments for the various levels of golem sophistication. speed, dex strength, constitution, intelligence, will, locked trees, bonus talent points and cat points.

Acid, poison or hypergolic "blood?" natural defense against attacks which do physical damage or cause blood splatter. does not require stamina or mana to work.


3. drolem construction or other synthetic non humanoid forms.

4. rare (but not unique artifact rare) containers or objects that contain skill downloads (for the golem and or for the player character) such containers when used impart either a locked or unlocked tree, talent, skillset or else add a level of an existing skill set. Or it could just add one or more levels of talent, cat point or generic points under the rationalization that it has reorganized nueral pathways to process information more efficiently. Alternatively such an object could steal a talent etc from the player char (and maybe NPCs) and give it to the golem. The container when used is destroyed unless it was found empty in which case the first use fills it and the second use destroys it. it should be rare but it should be possible to find more than one with no upper limit but that imposed by the RNG.

The code for the talent stealing and talent giving already exist in the tech paladin addon but needs serious nerfing to not be a blatant cheat. I believe the code for the tech paladin comes from an existing class perhaps the Tourist. The Tech Paladin custom class addon allows the farming not only of talents but also of talent points when paired with the respec addons or just the in-game respec capability. A one shot object would nerf that quite well even if you can find more than one in a typical run. about the only drawback of Tech Paladin is that you can accidentally acquire anti-magic pools and destroy your ability to cast spells and lose access to Angolwen without getting access to Zigur.

5. Golems should be able to train from any NPC the player character can. in vanilla this would just be the basic sling/bow skill from the store in last hope. but also it should be able to use academy tokens from the arcanum mod, or the additional trainers given by the various mods that provide other trainers if this can be done externally to those mods or if the mod providers are willing to code golems into thier mods provisions. If possible the escort quests should also allow tree grants for the golem even if the PC has the tree already.

6. additional golem-like things an alchemist should be able to build are Homonoculi, Similacrum, artificial elementaries and advanced thought forms called Tulpas. Parenthetically; Psionics using classes have a thought form tree already but elemental mages do not seem to have a tree for making artificial elementaries or summoning natural ones and they should.)an alchemist could have a golem, a homonoculus, a similacrum and one or more tulpas (there is a danger to having any Tulpa and having more than one is just asking for disaster.)
On drolems:
He/she it looks like it is made of metal... how about if it's wings have flingable metal feather (knives) like apocalypse's buffed up archangel.

talent can have a medium to long duration cool down and releases a medium to large number of feather knives

or a "claw, claw, bite attack routine" or wing slap or tail sweep or headbutt or might try to swallow a target whole.

it's pretty big maybe you could ride it?

that would give the drolem talent tree four talents including the original breath weapon.

or maybe it could morph material from the floor/wall etc to make a egg shaped shelter shield at the expense of being forced to remain stationary (like the stonewall thing from spell/earth. but if the player character and the drolem are in close proximity the shell could surround both if that is possible to code. leveling the talent up could make the shell out of harder materials.
older post on golems:
Golems are kind of weak and useless. especially at mid and higher levels. I have some ideas for additional golem related talents that might help. Feel free to add your own ideas or make the add on please please please?


1. donate talents to the golem sacrifice some of your own talent points at a one to one, two to one or three to one exchange rate so your poor golem can learn more stuff.
2. let your golem go to the mage's academy.
3. do it indirectly by creating a golemancy talent where by investing your own talent points you alter your golem's rate of progression, stat, talent and category points.
5. create a golemancy talent that allows your golem more equipment slots or more gem slots.
6. Create a golemancy talent that allows your golem to gain a prodigy or two (each about 5 levels after you gain one.) each additional talent point (limited to five or 2 per prodigy) lowers the level penalty for gaining the prodigy.
7. create a talent that allows you to steal a talent from yourself, an enemy or NPC and give it to your golem.
8. become a trainer.
9. variety. make some of the other summoned critters permanent with golem like resurrection and capabilities plus the summoned critter ability if it has any.
10. your golem is actually an advanced android like the androids in alien or replicants like in blade runner or Data from TNG or Xizor's assassin droid Guri from the starwars novels.

immersion would mean stuff like the golem commenting about things you are doing or seeing or doing or having happen to you or it. commenting on upgrades. for example asking for an upgrade, saying it would be useful if i could ________, or "oh hey! i just thought about how i could equip an extra gem!" or maybe idle behaviors when not in combat, in town, while the main character rests, or in the fortress.

i do not yet know whether these can just be bought using the players talent points or if golem/alchemy lore must be uncovered by quests or incidental to the regular quests.

i think expanded golems could include closer anthropomorphic conformation of the regular golem to speciation into homononculi, similacrums, replicants, droids, tulpas and possibly tulku.
I don't know for certain what Alias of the Azure Bonds (from the forgotten realms novel of the same name) was but she was some sort of magically created or constructed human with mostly free will.

I have added the new throwing knife talent tree to my drolem but thats just a crude way to do it. The golem version could have it's own icon and it is not necessary to include the whole tree if that would be OP. but at least for drolems that would add a second talent to it's lonely one talent containing tree :)

stormbringer
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#13 Post by stormbringer »

some of those are alterations to the alchemist but admittedly most are directed at the golem. so i will try to think up more that are directed at the alchemist.

perhaps we could draw on the lore or myths about alchemists in the real world as well as fantasy.

unfortunately most lore about alchemists are related to potions, salves and the like. but alchemists also were noted for trying to make the philosopher's stone, immortality, and turning one substance into another notable lead into gold.

Alchemy is the term art that eventually yielded the science of chemistry and then arguable physics.

Maybe an alchemist can make a modest amount of gold periodically. it would be helpful at least in the early game to get better equipment. but being able to sell gems for gold at a better rate almost makes that suggestion useless. You would have to have the alchemist be able to make quantities of gold that would make it preferable to making and selling quantities of gems.

HousePet
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#14 Post by HousePet »

Stormbringer, Not that I have a problem with this, but the Metal Alchemy category is from on addon. :lol:
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anonymous000
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Re: Alchemist Rework Ideas

#15 Post by anonymous000 »

astreoth wrote: also we should totally do the golem power armour thing seriously we can already unlock making a drolem its simply ridiculous we cant already rain death from above while riding our giant dragon golems WAS SITTING ON A GIANT FLYING STONE LIZARD TOO ABSTRACT A CONCEPT WHY DO I EVEN NEED TO SAY THIS.

also we could just abandon infusions entirely and give + element damage for investing in the element alchemy trees free up room for more intresting talents.
Agreed. I never played Alchemist as the class does not appeal to me at all, but being able to create various sorts of golem and donning them is an exciting concept
stormbringer wrote: perhaps we could draw on the lore or myths about alchemists in the real world as well as fantasy.

unfortunately most lore about alchemists are related to potions, salves and the like. but alchemists also were noted for trying to make the philosopher's stone, immortality, and turning one substance into another notable lead into gold.
Thematically I never liked the idea of having Alchemist to choose between fire/cold/acid/lightning, as Alchemy should be about mixing different elements together to form new elements. An example would be this tree in the Tempus Fugit mod by HousePet.

Impossible Magic - high level
Flame Shards: active. Ice Shards but does fire damage and freezes.
Gravel Bolt: active. physical damage beam that dazes.
Iceflash: active. Fireflash but does cold damage and burning.
Stormslide: active. lightning damage cone with knockback.

Good things about this concept are 1. this sets Alchemists much apart from AM thematically 2. It removes some "imaginary" limitations and opens up room in talent designs, like you can design wall tiles that does chain lightning, a fire-freeze status that immobilize enemy, deal DOT damage and allows you to attack through the "fire block", etc.
Last edited by anonymous000 on Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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