Evasion should apply to projectile spells
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Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Apparently this is way out in Unpopularville, but it makes a lot of sense for both gameplay and realism (not that the latter really matters). There should be a chance to dodge incoming projectile spells based on your defence. It would change the balance a bit between spells and defence in the right direction, and make defence builds more interesting and defensive enemies more challenging for casters. For certain spells where this is deemed inappropriate give them a 1x1 area of effect on reaching target, as AoE can't be dodged.
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Well, accuracy vs defense for projectile spells wouldn't work too well, because, well, mages don't build accuracy, or any of the stats that get you Combat Accuracy. So, you wouldn't hit much. (Edit: Wait, hmmm. Combat Accuracy is just levels, isn't it? Never mind this. It still suffers from requiring a lot of invest for mages, though, since none of them build Dex, ever, right now.)
And it's a rare mage that really gets little enough spellpower so that they'd miss against target Defense, if you went with that. And then there's the occasional enemy with ridiculous Defense...which you would have no real way to buff up your spellpower more against, and no +100 type accuracy skill for, etc.
Getting it solely against single projectiles and not AoE mostly just makes projectiles worse...and they tend to be some of the weaker spells. I'd rather see it work against all forms of magic, to be honest.
I wouldn't mind seeing Defense-and Armor, for that matter-get *some* impact against magic. I'm just not sure how you properly represent it without making it abusable or useless.
I mean, I agree with the idea in theory, I just don't know what you'd check against. And an absolute rate of dodging spells doesn't really mesh with other forms of accuracy.
And it's a rare mage that really gets little enough spellpower so that they'd miss against target Defense, if you went with that. And then there's the occasional enemy with ridiculous Defense...which you would have no real way to buff up your spellpower more against, and no +100 type accuracy skill for, etc.
Getting it solely against single projectiles and not AoE mostly just makes projectiles worse...and they tend to be some of the weaker spells. I'd rather see it work against all forms of magic, to be honest.
I wouldn't mind seeing Defense-and Armor, for that matter-get *some* impact against magic. I'm just not sure how you properly represent it without making it abusable or useless.
I mean, I agree with the idea in theory, I just don't know what you'd check against. And an absolute rate of dodging spells doesn't really mesh with other forms of accuracy.
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
minirant: Am I the only person who dislikes Evasion conceptually? I think the proper way to portray someone being harder to hit is well, more Defense. It just feels...odd to me to sidestep this mechanic completely % of the time(critical successes and failures aside).
Still, once you accept the mechanic, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to evade projectiles. Could perhaps apply a penalty based on the projectile speed(or not, as that already affects getting out of the way normally).
Still, once you accept the mechanic, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to evade projectiles. Could perhaps apply a penalty based on the projectile speed(or not, as that already affects getting out of the way normally).
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Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Boo! Hiss! Burn the filthy non-mage sympathiser!
More seriously, while I see nothing wrong with trying to redress the balance between magic and melee (which seems distinctly tilted right now), it's worth being careful with this one. For one, projectile spells can already be dodged via player movement (and there is the whole speed can of worms to deal with). Also, it would make AoE and beam spells even more vastly superior to the rest than they already are.
More importantly, you could easily end up tipping the balance the other way. Defense already protects you against melee and ranged damage (and, as importantly, melee and ranged-inflicted status effects). If it does the same to a large proportion of spells, it becomes too valuable not to stack on every character who can do so (like mental save on a solipsist). And then a significant fraction of the mage arsenal may as well not exist.
I'm not a big fan of the status quo as it is, but it does seem to work. The fact that, against a mage, a melee character needs to close the distance or die is balanced by how squishy and helpless most mages are once you succeed in doing so.
More seriously, while I see nothing wrong with trying to redress the balance between magic and melee (which seems distinctly tilted right now), it's worth being careful with this one. For one, projectile spells can already be dodged via player movement (and there is the whole speed can of worms to deal with). Also, it would make AoE and beam spells even more vastly superior to the rest than they already are.
More importantly, you could easily end up tipping the balance the other way. Defense already protects you against melee and ranged damage (and, as importantly, melee and ranged-inflicted status effects). If it does the same to a large proportion of spells, it becomes too valuable not to stack on every character who can do so (like mental save on a solipsist). And then a significant fraction of the mage arsenal may as well not exist.
I'm not a big fan of the status quo as it is, but it does seem to work. The fact that, against a mage, a melee character needs to close the distance or die is balanced by how squishy and helpless most mages are once you succeed in doing so.
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
That sounds fine to me. Rare to miss for any regular caster, but some powerful enemies will be almost impossible to hit, forcing you to shift tactics. Mages don't need a +100 type accuracy when they have a wide arsenal of skills to deploy.SageAcrin wrote: And it's a rare mage that really gets little enough spellpower so that they'd miss against target Defense, if you went with that. And then there's the occasional enemy with ridiculous Defense...which you would have no real way to buff up your spellpower more against, and no +100 type accuracy skill for, etc.
I don't understand the worry that projectile spells will be sidelined by this - they include some very powerful spells, in particular a number of high end status-inducing ones.
What could be fun (but might be some work) is for missed projectiles to carry on behind the target, potentially hitting other things within range. A few other roguelikes have this, and it at least *looks* cool when the arrow misses and carries on to hit the wall a few squares away.
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Somewhere far, far away, Alphabetsoup the lost sun paladin felt a sudden sense of impending doom...Grey wrote:What could be fun (but might be some work) is for missed projectiles to carry on behind the target, potentially hitting other things within range. A few other roguelikes have this, and it at least *looks* cool when the arrow misses and carries on to hit the wall a few squares away.
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Just a though, but that would make Halflings the new master race, being able to be pretty much immune to any melee, and now also non-aoe magic.
Also, most super high defense foes are Bulwark, not sure what 'change of tactics' you have in mind short of just skipping them outright, since only throwing aoe spells sure as hell won't make a dent in them.
Also, most super high defense foes are Bulwark, not sure what 'change of tactics' you have in mind short of just skipping them outright, since only throwing aoe spells sure as hell won't make a dent in them.
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Actually, why not be able to dodge beams as well?
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Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Nothing wrong with that in my view. It's good to have some enemies that you will just want to avoid, even if they're not that threatening.Nivrax wrote:Also, most super high defense foes are Bulwark, not sure what 'change of tactics' you have in mind short of just skipping them outright, since only throwing aoe spells sure as hell won't make a dent in them.
They're wide beams ;)jotwebe wrote:Actually, why not be able to dodge beams as well?
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
There's some mages(Anorithil and Corruptor come to mind) that really do end up partially walled by this, but yes, it's mostly only a concern if Defense works on more than just projectiles.That sounds fine to me. Rare to miss for any regular caster, but some powerful enemies will be almost impossible to hit, forcing you to shift tactics. Mages don't need a +100 type accuracy when they have a wide arsenal of skills to deploy.
...Like?I don't understand the worry that projectile spells will be sidelined by this - they include some very powerful spells, in particular a number of high end status-inducing ones.
I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I really can't think of any projectile spell that is especially good. I can think of stuff like Archmage beams/Fireflash, Nightfall spells, Alchemist bombs, etc.
But for bolt projectile orientation, the only notable classes for it are Corruptor and Anorithil. The former is notable for it only because they have a lot of them, and because they're fast CD, not because the bolts are especially great(Though, I suppose I'll grant that Blood Grasp is pretty good in a vacuum). The latter is because of a playstyle definining skill, Corona, that generates tons of them.
I don't know if Corona would be sidelined, but that's mostly because Anorithil doesn't have much else notable for major gameplay definers. Corruptor doesn't care, it has enough AoE to get around it anyways.
I mean, I know they feel good when you're getting hit with them, because every enemy using Soul Rot is a real danger, but +big chunk of critical rate is better on enemies than the PC, who tends to get 50+% critical rate quite easily.
Though, having said all of that, the net effect of Spellpower vs Defense for single enemy projectile type spells would be nearly no change on the player end (Your Spellpower is nearly always 20 higher than target Defense outside of extreme cases, where you still have backups), and nerfing Corruptor-type enemies vs extremely high defense builds on the enemy end, as far as I can tell.
So, unless I'm missing something, it wouldn't be particularly dangerous or harmful of a change, either. <_< It just wouldn't do much.
Then again, it's probably an easy change, too. So there's that.
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
I'm not sure it would be that easy actually. If it's too much work it may not be worth doing.
Corruptor talents I was mostly thinking of. As a player they fecking hurt. Anorithil corona procs are less effected due to their sheer number, and low damage per unit.
But there's also archmage talents like freeze (can be dodged in open space anyway), slow time, strike. At low levels this could effect the likes of flame. And there's some chronomancy ones too that enemies tend to spam a lot.
Corruptor talents I was mostly thinking of. As a player they fecking hurt. Anorithil corona procs are less effected due to their sheer number, and low damage per unit.
But there's also archmage talents like freeze (can be dodged in open space anyway), slow time, strike. At low levels this could effect the likes of flame. And there's some chronomancy ones too that enemies tend to spam a lot.
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
If I read Freeze right (and the description implies this), it actually is a direct strike with no projectile ever produced.
I will grant that Turn Back The Clock(the big Paradox Mage bolt) is pretty good, though, even after the nerfs, and I suppose I'm not giving Earthen Missiles enough credit, either. (Earthen Missiles is, in a vacuum, pretty much the highest damage spell in the game. Obviously, it doesn't live in a vacuum, so it never gets a ton of hype, but.)
I don't see why it'd be hard for projectiles to check Defense vs Spellpower, though. Wouldn't that just be a reimplementation of Archery code?
I will grant that Turn Back The Clock(the big Paradox Mage bolt) is pretty good, though, even after the nerfs, and I suppose I'm not giving Earthen Missiles enough credit, either. (Earthen Missiles is, in a vacuum, pretty much the highest damage spell in the game. Obviously, it doesn't live in a vacuum, so it never gets a ton of hype, but.)
I don't see why it'd be hard for projectiles to check Defense vs Spellpower, though. Wouldn't that just be a reimplementation of Archery code?
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Haven't you dodged Freezes from crystals and cryomancers before?SageAcrin wrote:If I read Freeze right (and the description implies this), it actually is a direct strike with no projectile ever produced.
The code itself is simple, but if it has to be injected for every relevant spell then that's a lot of work. This might not be required, it might be easy enough, but I'm not assuming.I don't see why it'd be hard for projectiles to check Defense vs Spellpower, though. Wouldn't that just be a reimplementation of Archery code?
Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Haven't you dodged Freezes from crystals and cryomancers before?Grey wrote:SageAcrin wrote:If I read Freeze right (and the description implies this), it actually is a direct strike with no projectile ever produced.
Crystals don't cast regular Freeze though - I think it's something like Frozen Shards?
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Re: Evasion should apply to projectile spells
Ice Shards, yeah. That's what they use.jotwebe wrote:Haven't you dodged Freezes from crystals and cryomancers before?Grey wrote:SageAcrin wrote:If I read Freeze right (and the description implies this), it actually is a direct strike with no projectile ever produced.
Crystals don't cast regular Freeze though - I think it's something like Frozen Shards?
Okay, yeah, it could conceivably end up bulky.The code itself is simple, but if it has to be injected for every relevant spell then that's a lot of work. This might not be required, it might be easy enough, but I'm not assuming.
Not actually difficult, but it might be tedious. Fair enough.