I made a debug character to test the damages of different top tier weapons, and this is what I found (all stats at 100, no mastery) The item's physical power is shown in brackets.
Greatsword (66) 115 damage, 1.6 damage range, 5% crit, average per hit of 153 damage
Greatmaul (72) 119 damage, 1.5 damage range, 3% crit, average per hit of 151 damage
Greataxe (60) 110 damage, 1.5 damage range, 8% crit, average per hit of 143 damage
Bow (57) 108 damage, 1.4 damage range, 3% crit, average per hit of 132 damage (165 per turn)
Sling (57) 108 damage, 1.2 damage range, 7% crit, average per hit of 123 damage (154 per turn)
Mace (48) 85 damage, 1.4 damage range, 3% crit, average per hit of 104 damage
Sword (45) 83 damage, 1.4 damage range, 5% crit, average per hit of 102 damage
Waraxe (42) 81 damage, 1.4 damage range, 7% crit, average per hit of 101 damage
Staff (38) 78 damage, 1.2 damage range, 5% crit, average per hit of 88 damage
Dagger (40) 72 damage, 1.3 damage range, 10% crit, average per hit of 87 damage
Calculation of average was (dam * [(1+dam range)/2] * [1 + crit rate/2])
For the Voratun Greatmaul it would be 119 * 1.25 * 1.015 = 150.98
Note that this the above not consider APR or attack speed. If the faster attack speed is factored in, bows and slings are at 165 and 154 damage per normal speed turn, respectively. The fact that ranged weapons deal more damage than melee ones does not fit well with me, as I feel it should be a tradeoff, range for damage.
I suggest reducing the damage of bows by 20%, and slings by 35%. This would bring the damage per normal speed turn of a bow down to slightly below a battleaxe, and a sling to in between a waraxe and a dagger.
EDIT: added staff info, added bow/sling damage to the list in brackets.
Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
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Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
Last edited by lukep on Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
The problem I have with this idea is that archers aren't exactly the most OP class in the game. While I do agree that bows and slings need to be seriously looked at the class doesn't have much going for it to begin with (steady shot, aimed shot, high base weapon damage). They have low mobility, low survivability, and great damage output. Neither of these first two things mean much to an NPC and the last makes archer NPCs difficult to deal with. But when you flip it around and find you have a class that only has it's damage output we can't really nerf that without taking a serious look at the rest of it's toolset.
I guess what I'm getting at is this. Archer NPCs are ridiculously overpowered and nerfing bows and slings would help that. But Archer PCs are not overpowered and nerfing their damage without giving them other tools will make them underpowered. In other words, while a sound idea, I think it will need a lot more then just a damage nerf to maintain game balance on both sides of the fence.
I guess what I'm getting at is this. Archer NPCs are ridiculously overpowered and nerfing bows and slings would help that. But Archer PCs are not overpowered and nerfing their damage without giving them other tools will make them underpowered. In other words, while a sound idea, I think it will need a lot more then just a damage nerf to maintain game balance on both sides of the fence.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
Archer seems like a fraction of class to me. I have an imperfect grasp of ToME 4's development, but it seems like many of these stamina-based classes are designed around simpler, old-school roguelike concepts, and their balance seems really skewed because of it. I can think of two ways to fix the problem with archers: nerf the NPCs so they don't get huge Str/Dex scores, ego'ed bows, ego'ed ammo, and high levels of talents that increase damage output, or completely reevaluate the idea of Archer as a player class. It's very difficult to balance both NPCs and the class when they rely on exactly the same mechanics. Weren't Temporal Wardens already a melee/ranged hybrid, I'd suggest going that route; right now the best change would be to nix the class, fold some of the talents into warrior/rogue classes, and consider adding a wilder ranger class (so that more interesting/diverse skills could be included alongside traditional archer talents).
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
Yeah, I agree with bricks. The classic archer class isn't very interesting, and could benefit from being reimagined as a ranger-style class, perhaps using rogue traps and some wilder movement talents.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
*cough* Animal companion mechanic.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
What the raw analysis doesn't (and cant at some level) account for is everything else that acts on the damage output. And that's really where the puddin is. Archers might be straight-forward and "old style", but the are not incredibly over powered.
I'm all for exploring new ways to do stamina based ranged classes, but it makes no sense in my mind to take a working class and junk it.
I would love to see something like the mage/archer class that was talked about on forums... or a stealthy, sniper type... or an axe/knife thrower, or even the ranger/archer thing that people here seem to be pushing (ok, that sounds positively awful to me, but I'm all for other people enjoying it)... but don't be too quick to get rid of something that works.
That said, I would like to see ammo revisited somehow: even as an archer, i mostly ignore it.
I'm all for exploring new ways to do stamina based ranged classes, but it makes no sense in my mind to take a working class and junk it.
I would love to see something like the mage/archer class that was talked about on forums... or a stealthy, sniper type... or an axe/knife thrower, or even the ranger/archer thing that people here seem to be pushing (ok, that sounds positively awful to me, but I'm all for other people enjoying it)... but don't be too quick to get rid of something that works.
That said, I would like to see ammo revisited somehow: even as an archer, i mostly ignore it.
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Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
Right. But Archer NPCs are incredibly overpowered because NPCs by their nature are disposable. Things like mobility and survivability don't really factor into the NPC equation much. Lethality on the other hand does. Especially when the player is on the receiving end of a Bow of Great Speed.shooth wrote:What the raw analysis doesn't (and cant at some level) account for is everything else that acts on the damage output. And that's really where the puddin is. Archers might be straight-forward and "old style", but the are not incredibly over powered.
Anyway, I agree with Bricks and Grey and really that was kinda my point. The Archer class doesn't have a lot going for it and a nerf to bow and sling weapon damage, while good for the game, really would need to be rolled into a general Archer revamp or rebalance.
I've actually mentioned Aimed Shot on IRC a number of times. It's possibly the single most damaging talent in the game... but the only class that benefits from it has so little else going for it I would never push that Aimed Shot should be rebalanced without the class getting a lot in return. My opinion on bows and slings is the same.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
In other games that I've played ranged attacks seem to fit into a few types:
Keep in mind these are generalities based on personal observations of over 20 years of gaming.
For turn-based games, low damage attacks for extra damage involving other more important melee units, average damage attacks so that every tactical decision is based on using them as often as possible, or high damage attacks to snipe boss units as quickly as possible.
Game examples: Any rpg tactics game with archer characters like Shining Force on sega genesis or a war tactics game like Advance Wars on the gameboy.
For real-time games, weak damage attacks with high move speed for kiting, average damage attacks and move speed meant to initiate fights and sometimes kite, or high damage attacks and slow move speed meant to be used for sniping and sneaking.
Game examples: Any first person shooter...Skyrim (can't stop playing it wtf).
In other roguelikes that I've played ranged attacks take the same amount of energy as using a melee attack or spell (for the most part). The only way to perform a turn more quickly is with the relatively rare +speed items found on bosses.
Tome is the only turn-based rpg that I've seen where multiple-turn high damage ranged attacks are not only possible through abilities, but are built into the ranged weapon type itself. Not to mention that egos for the ranged weapon type can also have +speed or +damage, in the cheesiest case having speed egos stacked two or even three times for a ridiculous amount of attacks per round, while not sacrificing anything. Even Skyrim, which is much less hardcore than Tome, has only one built in weapon speed increase for bows, and then only after a very large time investment into using the bow at the normal speed.
I'm not really sure how to 'fix' this 'problem'; assuming it even needs 'fixing' to begin with because I know Tome characters rely on their class kit and not solely on items, but I have to say that player character archers in Arena mode are quite dumb, and of course the lava vaults with skeleton archers...I gave up on trying to clear those while not losing any lives. The least biased criticism for the archer/ranger I have is that the class can be incredibly dull to use even compared to a bump attacker; would it take a kit rework to make the class more interesting and more rewarding for the player actively engaging instead of just tapping the shoot button ten times per encounter? Probably, but I don't have enough experience with Tome to assert a radical change like a kit rework, and defer to devs/vets, while popping in to comment occasionally.
Keep in mind these are generalities based on personal observations of over 20 years of gaming.
For turn-based games, low damage attacks for extra damage involving other more important melee units, average damage attacks so that every tactical decision is based on using them as often as possible, or high damage attacks to snipe boss units as quickly as possible.
Game examples: Any rpg tactics game with archer characters like Shining Force on sega genesis or a war tactics game like Advance Wars on the gameboy.
For real-time games, weak damage attacks with high move speed for kiting, average damage attacks and move speed meant to initiate fights and sometimes kite, or high damage attacks and slow move speed meant to be used for sniping and sneaking.
Game examples: Any first person shooter...Skyrim (can't stop playing it wtf).
In other roguelikes that I've played ranged attacks take the same amount of energy as using a melee attack or spell (for the most part). The only way to perform a turn more quickly is with the relatively rare +speed items found on bosses.
Tome is the only turn-based rpg that I've seen where multiple-turn high damage ranged attacks are not only possible through abilities, but are built into the ranged weapon type itself. Not to mention that egos for the ranged weapon type can also have +speed or +damage, in the cheesiest case having speed egos stacked two or even three times for a ridiculous amount of attacks per round, while not sacrificing anything. Even Skyrim, which is much less hardcore than Tome, has only one built in weapon speed increase for bows, and then only after a very large time investment into using the bow at the normal speed.
I'm not really sure how to 'fix' this 'problem'; assuming it even needs 'fixing' to begin with because I know Tome characters rely on their class kit and not solely on items, but I have to say that player character archers in Arena mode are quite dumb, and of course the lava vaults with skeleton archers...I gave up on trying to clear those while not losing any lives. The least biased criticism for the archer/ranger I have is that the class can be incredibly dull to use even compared to a bump attacker; would it take a kit rework to make the class more interesting and more rewarding for the player actively engaging instead of just tapping the shoot button ten times per encounter? Probably, but I don't have enough experience with Tome to assert a radical change like a kit rework, and defer to devs/vets, while popping in to comment occasionally.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
A thought; being able to move and shoot at the same time would make a huge difference, and it would eliminate the need for the increased rate of fire on bows/slings (which I've been informed was done to make kiting viable). Fighting from range doesn't do you a bit of good if you have to backpedal every other turn just to keep out of swinging range. I can't think of a perfect way of doing it, though. A sustain that lets you designate a target to attempt to fire at every turn spent moving/idling? It would certainly make archers/slingers more interesting and distinct from mages without having to pile them up with increased damage.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
Going off of brick's post, not sure if its been proposed yet, but what if the Archer/Slinger had an ability which they invest points into that lets them shoot once and move once in the same turn?
example: Archer/Slinger has an ability unlocked at say level ten or so that could be either active or passive or sustain.
If active it would be a low cost, instant-use, low cooldown skill; and lets the archer/slinger either move/attack or attack/move.
If passive it would have a low/no sustain cost, only 'procced' when the archer/slinger shoots, and has a duration between procs to avoid cheese.
Or just make it a high sustain that works every turn. /shrug
example: Archer/Slinger has an ability unlocked at say level ten or so that could be either active or passive or sustain.
If active it would be a low cost, instant-use, low cooldown skill; and lets the archer/slinger either move/attack or attack/move.
If passive it would have a low/no sustain cost, only 'procced' when the archer/slinger shoots, and has a duration between procs to avoid cheese.
Or just make it a high sustain that works every turn. /shrug
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
This is why Bows and Slings currently are so fast.bricks wrote:A thought; being able to move and shoot at the same time would make a huge difference, and it would eliminate the need for the increased rate of fire on bows/slings (which I've been informed was done to make kiting viable). Fighting from range doesn't do you a bit of good if you have to backpedal every other turn just to keep out of swinging range. I can't think of a perfect way of doing it, though. A sustain that lets you designate a target to attempt to fire at every turn spent moving/idling? It would certainly make archers/slingers more interesting and distinct from mages without having to pile them up with increased damage.
Honestly I think the class could stand for a complete rewrite. Break the trees down into Marksmanship, Fast Shooting, Trick Shooting, Skirmishing, and Advanced Marksmanship and Advanced Fast Shooting. Blur the distinction between sling and bow talents. Merge Bow and Sling mastery into ranged mastery and move it into the Combat Training tree.
Buff their mobility. Reduce the stamina cost on Slow Motion so they can actually afford to use it so they have a chance against spell casters. Reduce the damage out put on slings so the distinction can be sling and shield (defense) or bow (damage) rather then cunning vs. strength (slings should work off strength too). Basically make slings one handed bows. If we want slings to be open to cunning classes roll ranged weapons into the lethality talent (so it'd work for slings and bows).
As to the trees themselves. Marksmanship and Advanced Marksmanship would basically be your high damage single target talents with a few passives and sustains sprinkled in. Fast Shooting would be low damage quick attacks. Stuff that would be good for shoot and scooting or engaging multiple weak enemies. Fast Shooting and Marksmanship could have automatic sustains much like the Brawler stances (maybe passive talents at the end of these trees to buff those sustains). Trick Shooting would mostly be stuff like Flare, Piercing Shot, Inertial Shot, and maybe a passive version of Dual Shot (chance for your shots to ricochet and hit a second target). Skirmishing would be more survival based, Hit and Run would be a good passive talent (slight movement speed buff every time you hit an opponent), some defensive melee options would be good for that tree too (Trips, Blinds, basically cheap stuff an archer might do if they ended up in melee to buy themselves time to get back to ranged).
If this is something Darkgod would be interested in I could do a more in depth write up and take a look at coding it. But he may have his own ideas for what the class needs (I get the impression he wants to do a rewrite of the archery code at some point and I'm not sure what he has in mind).
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
Something like that sounds a helluva' lot sexier than what's currently there. Archers are definitely a lot less attractive and interesting than like... all the other classes. They just don't do much, besides pew pew with the launcher of choice.
They've got like one movement tree that, what, four-five other classes have? Field control. Then dirty fighting and the combat technique trees (one locked) -- I'm not even sure why archers have dirty fighting and the rush tree. Again, none of which is unique; or, to be more precise, several other classes have. The archer's actual unique trees all do basically the same thing, either mechanically or thematically. Twang/swish goes the launcher. Even 'zerkers get more interesting things to do than that
Actually, I just noticed the only trees unique to the archer, now that the t.warden's flapping around, is archery training and the bloody sling tree. Two trees! Two! And they're not very interesting! Seeing something done to the poor things would be pretty awesome. They were about in line waaay back when they were first done, but then everyone got an injection of sexy and archers (then split in two!) just kinda' got left behind.
If it weren't for stone wardens being there (TENTACLES! Also beating everyone, every turn, with a shield), an archer refit would be my most hoped for class related change.
They've got like one movement tree that, what, four-five other classes have? Field control. Then dirty fighting and the combat technique trees (one locked) -- I'm not even sure why archers have dirty fighting and the rush tree. Again, none of which is unique; or, to be more precise, several other classes have. The archer's actual unique trees all do basically the same thing, either mechanically or thematically. Twang/swish goes the launcher. Even 'zerkers get more interesting things to do than that
Actually, I just noticed the only trees unique to the archer, now that the t.warden's flapping around, is archery training and the bloody sling tree. Two trees! Two! And they're not very interesting! Seeing something done to the poor things would be pretty awesome. They were about in line waaay back when they were first done, but then everyone got an injection of sexy and archers (then split in two!) just kinda' got left behind.
If it weren't for stone wardens being there (TENTACLES! Also beating everyone, every turn, with a shield), an archer refit would be my most hoped for class related change.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
It seems like the main issue here is that PC archers don't have much going for them, and need the fast firing to let them escape, so what if we gave the archer class an extra mobility tree to go along with the nerfs, something like:
Archery Mobility
Shoot and Scoot: passive
Every time you shoot (hit or miss, but not dodged) an enemy , there is a (20, 40, 60, 80, 100)% chance to gain +(50 * talent)% movement speed for one move. This stacks to a maximum of (2 + talent) moves, and lasts (1 + talent / 3, rounded up) turns, refreshing with every shot.
Resight: Activated, 30 stamina, 15 cooldown
Moves you up to (5, 6, 7, 8, 9) tiles away from your current location, to a location that is exactly (archery range) away from and in LoS of a targeted enemy, and shoots at them for (50-90)% weapon damage. If it cannot reach a suitable location, it is not used or placed on cooldown.
Cowardly Escape Activated, instant cast, 20 stamina, 25 cooldown
Can only be activated while you have the "scoot" effect active. Multiplies the movement speed bonus by (2 + talent / 2, rounded up), maintaining its duration and removing the per-step countdown, but reduces your physical damage by (50, 40, 30, 20, 10)% for 5 turns.
Dodging: passive
While scoot or cowardly escape are active, you gain + (2 * talent) defence.
While I didn't put too much thought into specific balance for the tree, I believe that it is on the right track. Thoughts?
EDIT: added "...from your current location" to Resight description to clarify, and that it is not placed on cooldown on failure.
Archery Mobility
Shoot and Scoot: passive
Every time you shoot (hit or miss, but not dodged) an enemy , there is a (20, 40, 60, 80, 100)% chance to gain +(50 * talent)% movement speed for one move. This stacks to a maximum of (2 + talent) moves, and lasts (1 + talent / 3, rounded up) turns, refreshing with every shot.
Resight: Activated, 30 stamina, 15 cooldown
Moves you up to (5, 6, 7, 8, 9) tiles away from your current location, to a location that is exactly (archery range) away from and in LoS of a targeted enemy, and shoots at them for (50-90)% weapon damage. If it cannot reach a suitable location, it is not used or placed on cooldown.
Cowardly Escape Activated, instant cast, 20 stamina, 25 cooldown
Can only be activated while you have the "scoot" effect active. Multiplies the movement speed bonus by (2 + talent / 2, rounded up), maintaining its duration and removing the per-step countdown, but reduces your physical damage by (50, 40, 30, 20, 10)% for 5 turns.
Dodging: passive
While scoot or cowardly escape are active, you gain + (2 * talent) defence.
While I didn't put too much thought into specific balance for the tree, I believe that it is on the right track. Thoughts?
EDIT: added "...from your current location" to Resight description to clarify, and that it is not placed on cooldown on failure.
Last edited by lukep on Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
I'd rather have a tree archetype such as that than the currently available stuff.
Re: Nerf slings (and bows, probably)
I'm all for complete rewrite, but it can also be fixed on mostly weapon level. And here some suggestions -
there are several way to do ranged attack:
1. fast moving/kiting, fast weak attack (think horse-archer type or slinger)
2. shouting from behind companion/created fortification, fast medium attack, slow moving (think longbowmen at Agincourt)
This type can also go hand-to hand after volley (can have instant switch to melee weapon)
3. very slow moving, slow stealthy sniper attack with big damage bonus - shooting unprepared/unarmored opponent Robin Hood stile.
There can be different weapons for those types of attacks.
For first - slings and small bows with speed bonus
For second - longbows/composite bows with movement penalty; this could be(but not necessary) accompanied by summoning and/or trap creation talent
For 3d - crossbows and huge bows with huge bonus for shooting from stealth and/or stun(or chance of it) after the shot and general speed penalty; this could be(but not necessary) accompanied by stealth/invisibility talent. Should be toned down for NPC to prevent one-hit kill.
there are several way to do ranged attack:
1. fast moving/kiting, fast weak attack (think horse-archer type or slinger)
2. shouting from behind companion/created fortification, fast medium attack, slow moving (think longbowmen at Agincourt)
This type can also go hand-to hand after volley (can have instant switch to melee weapon)
3. very slow moving, slow stealthy sniper attack with big damage bonus - shooting unprepared/unarmored opponent Robin Hood stile.
There can be different weapons for those types of attacks.
For first - slings and small bows with speed bonus
For second - longbows/composite bows with movement penalty; this could be(but not necessary) accompanied by summoning and/or trap creation talent
For 3d - crossbows and huge bows with huge bonus for shooting from stealth and/or stun(or chance of it) after the shot and general speed penalty; this could be(but not necessary) accompanied by stealth/invisibility talent. Should be toned down for NPC to prevent one-hit kill.