Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

All new ideas for the upcoming releases of ToME 4.x.x should be discussed here

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tiger_eye
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Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#1 Post by tiger_eye »

Prologue (you may skip this section)

Players have been cheating death in roguelikes for as long as there have been roguelikes. Originally, this was done via "save scumming" (copying save files as backups), but there are other ways to cheat and avoid death. Consequently, cheating has long been supported as an in-game feature (if you want to cheat, then cheat, and don't pretend you're not cheating!). I have been guilty of cheating myself. I was a prolific save-scummer back when I started playing Moria. I became so adept at save scumming that I even used it to get favorable RNG outcomes, such as better loot drops. This was a long time ago, and I was young and naive. The game remained somewhat interesting while cheating, but it became less challenging, less engaging, and less fun. At times it was tedious and boring. Other former cheaters have similar tales... and the same lesson learned: roguelikes are much more fun if you don't cheat! (and infinite lives is equivalent to cheating)

Nevertheless, there is a reason we cheated in the first place. I didn't like perma-death. It didn't seem fair to me. Roguelikes can be looooong. I could play as a single character for several weeks or even several months. Why would I risk losing all that playing time if the Random Number Gods (RNG), who could kill me on a whim, decided to be spiteful and end my game? If I died on level 70, I didn't want to spend the next few weeks redoing levels 1-70 again with a new character--what a waste of time! Moria was "only" 100 levels, and if I remember correctly how it played, it was a shorter game than ToME is now. When I played it (a little bit each evening), though, it didn't seem short at all. I was young and new to roguelikes, and the full gaming experience didn't feel accessible to me unless I cheated, which was most unfortunate. If there had been a kinder playing option between perma-death and cheating--and less extreme than either perma-death or cheating--I would have happily chosen it. A "middle way" playing mode would ideally make the game more accessible while keeping it challenging, fun, and fair. Indeed, what I wanted was... Chapters!

Summary

Every zone in ToME is considered a chapter. If you die during a chapter, then you will be penalized for the rest of the chapter. There is no perma-death. However, if a character dies several times during each chapter, then the game will become exceedingly difficult, and the player should be encouraged to start a new character (or become a better player :D ). A penalty for death discourages players from dying more than having multiple lives does (imho), so pure "roguelike" playing styles will be encouraged.

The "Chapters" playing mode will make the game more accessible in a fair and legitimate manner for those who choose this option. It does not need to be limited to beginners either: the difficulty of the game can be tweaked to challenge even the most insane among us.

The design goals, of course, are to make this mode simple, intuitive, fair, fun, etc. In order for Chapters to "just work"(tm), several subtle changes will need to be made in this mode.

Details

Death: back from the brink

Your character reverts to a previously saved state after dying. I would save the state between each level of a zone (but one could also save at the beginning of the zone only, but this would result in more tedium of redoing the zone). When you restart a level after dying, the level would be regenerated (as in if you died in Dreadfell(5), then the generator creates a new level for Dreadfell(5)). This removes the tedium of redoing the same level and avoids possible meta-game scumming, such as if you failed to save an escort, you could purposefully die and try to save it again using your knowledge of the level.

Creating a new level also gives the player a chance to avoid what killed them before--maybe the Random Number Gods will be kinder next time (or maybe not!). In my very limited experience with playing with multiple lives, deaths seem to occur in clusters: what killed you once can often kill you several times (maybe it was an out-of-level enemy, a particularly difficult elite, or just an unfriendly mob that you couldn't avoid). If you die in a level, there is no guarantee whatsoever that you'll get the same loot or the same vaults with the new level, so if you find something you really like, don't die!

Death: penalties

Each time a character dies in a chapter, they will receive 30% less XP than before (so one death is 70% XP, two deaths 49% XP, three deaths 34.3% XP, etc) for the rest of the chapter. Additionally, each death reduces the number of random drops in a level (nb_object) by one. Penalties for one chapter do not carry over to other chapters.

Loose ends

Stair-scumming

I strongly recommend disallowing stair scumming in this mode. When you enter a new level, you can't return to the previous level until you kill all hostile npcs.

Rod of Recall

Leaving a level always creates a saved state, which also saves the level that you are leaving. Leaving via the Rod of Recall is no different. Hence, if you recall out of Dreadfell(5), then later return to Dreadfell(5), dying there won't cause a new Dreadfell(5) to be regenerated, because the level has been saved.

Also, after a player dies and a new level is generated (or not), I would have the game give a message like "You feel disoriented for a second as if waking from a bad dream, and the Rod of Recall is oddly warm...". I would also put the Rod of Recall on full cooldown, 0/400 energy.

In-game resurrections

Perhaps give the player a choice to use in-game resurrections when they die. This would avoid the death penalty and the regeneration of the level.

Special zones

Zones such as the assassin lord/lost merchant quest, farportal zones, kryl feijan crypt, dreadfell ambush, etc., should be a single attempt only. Hence, if you die, you do not receive another chance to continue with the zone.

Worldmap enemy encounters

Hum. Not sure. I'm still thinking what would make sense if a character dies in a worldmap ambush. Any ideas?

Escorts

I don't think anything needs changed. They are random upon level generation if applicable. Hence, if you die on a level with an escort quest, you may have a different escort quest with the new level. If scumming for favorable escorts (at the cost of reduced XP and loot) is a concern, then I would have subsequent regeneration of levels use the same escort type as the first level generation.

Unlocks and achievements

I don't think anything needs changed here, either. We could be sticklers and have it so you can only recieve unlocks if you haven't died in that zone (or whatever is appropriate), but that's unnecessary imho. We could still disable unlocks with the easiest difficult level (analogous to discovery mode).

Elisa, your personal scry

I would expect a little more dialogue with her in chapters mode. If you died a lot in a zone and want to recover some XP in a comparable or easier optional zone, then you should be able to ask her for guidance (i.e., Elisa: "I heard of a rebel faction near Elvala / corrupted forest near Shatur" and so on. Before you enter a zone, perhaps she could tell you what (if anything) she knows about it and if she thinks you're prepared.

Incentives, rewards, and awards

I don't know if anything would make sense here, but having chapters does make additional incentives/rewards/awards possible.

Difficulty

Different difficulty levels should be available to choose from. Instead of changing the number of lives (as was previously done), we could modify the following parameters: XP gained, level of enemies, hitpoints, % damage, % healing, and so on.

Disclaimer

I'm sure I'm missing some things I meant to write, and I know I didn't fully explain each design decision. If you have questions or concerns, then ask or share. If Chapters does make it into ToME, I can almost guarantee that it won't be exactly as I described it here.

lukep
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#2 Post by lukep »

tiger_eye wrote:Death: penalties

Each time a character dies in a chapter, they will receive 30% less XP than before (so one death is 70% XP, two deaths 49% XP, three deaths 34.3% XP, etc) for the rest of the chapter. Additionally, each death reduces the number of random drops in a level (nb_object) by one. Penalties for one chapter do not carry over to other chapters.
In some ways, this could be worse than permadeath. Reducing the XP you receive would punish a weak character by making it even weaker, and unable to progress past the next zone, due to the loss in levels. It could result in a character being fatally flawed, but the player not realizing until another few hours had been put into it. No idea what a different idea would be, and this might be able to be overcome by grinding.

EDIT: meant to add "if implemented poorly" to the first sentence, got lost in editing.
Last edited by lukep on Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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tiger_eye
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#3 Post by tiger_eye »

lukep wrote:In some ways, this could be worse than permadeath. Reducing the XP you receive would punish a weak character by making it even weaker, and unable to progress past the next zone, due to the loss in levels.
Reducing XP sounds worse than it actually is, which is perfect game psychology. It is also a "fair" penalty that other games have used. I've been play-testing with 50% XP (equivalent to dying twice early in each zone) as a Shalore Rogue (Shalore have +35% XP penalty), and I'm not doing any farportal zones. The game is more difficult, but still very accessible (and I think more fun!), and the available XP increases the further along you are in the game. Hence, if you manage to not die in an advanced zone, then you'll be very well off. I just did Rak'Shor pride (which recently got more difficult) and Eruan. I died in a vault in Rak'Shor ('cause I'm playing a little carelessly), but I survived the regular levels just fine. I entered Dreadfell at clvl 19. I took on the orc ambush as clvl 21 (and beat it on my second attempt). I am about to do the Charred Scar at clvl 29.
lukep wrote:[...] and this might be able to be overcome by grinding.
I believe so. If I had been doing farportal zones (the most interesting way to grind) at 100% XP, I'm sure I'd be several levels higher.

Alternatively, if your character becomes hopeless because you've died so many times (which should be clear anyway), maybe Elisa could suggest that your current character simply isn't cut out for adventuring :wink:

darkgod
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#4 Post by darkgod »

I like the idea.

I dont think the penalty is too harsh, remember the game will also adapt to your level, within reason.
People seem to be afraid of doing dreadfell before level 30 but it really was meant to be 20-30 so it's just fine
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Grey
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#5 Post by Grey »

This to me sounds pretty horrible. It's essentially infinite lives, with each life lost in a zone making that part of the game harder and grindier. It certainly doesn't give the impression of Chapters, which would imply some milestone has been reached to replay from.

What I'd suggest instead is a permanently restorable save every 5 levels. If you die you get to restore any of your level 5/10/15/etc saves.

Another simple option would be to allow permanent saving on the world map. This is used in many classic RPGs to good effect. It needs no complex explanations.

I'd also push away from the idea of introducing new difficulty modes and multiple start options (I always think numerous start options are a bad idea - let new players get in and start playing quickly without overwhelming them with useless trash). Have this mode simply be the new Discovery mode. Allow unlocks in Discovery mode for Discovery mode only.
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Canderel
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#6 Post by Canderel »

What I like about it is that it actually addresses my issue with non-infinite lives. I can now play the whole game.

What I don't like, in the current proposal, is the frequency of these chapters. Unfortunately I dunno the game well enough late game, but early game I'd suggest having only a couple:
1. The starting dungeons
2. Old forest, maybe specifically when reaching fortress (nice climactic end to the chapter)
3. Long chapter, but ending on dreadfell entrance.
4. The arrival at the east (the city, not just the dungeon)
5. Going back...
6. Here my furthest ends.

Now one can have waypoints in the chapters, like zones, which would emulate save scumming (last auto save was when you left the previous area. Just now supported ingame with a penalty.

Zones are short now, excepting dreadfell, so that is not too far away.

But in terms of chapters I'd almost want the screen to come up and say chapter x - the staff is calling. Or whatever names you want to give.

Tom
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#7 Post by Tom »

darkgod wrote:I like the idea.

I dont think the penalty is too harsh, remember the game will also adapt to your level, within reason.
People seem to be afraid of doing dreadfell before level 30 but it really was meant to be 20-30 so it's just fine
Huh?
Im always around lvl 20 when I go there with my rogue.
And Dreadfell is TOUGH for a rogue at lvl 20 despite some of the wimpy undeads.

How is it possible to be lvl 30?
There are no monsters for such a high level.
The only cave I know of I didnt do is the elven ruins.
What have I missed?

darkgod
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#8 Post by darkgod »

many farportals :)
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tiger_eye
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#9 Post by tiger_eye »

Tom wrote:Huh?
Im always around lvl 20 when I go there with my rogue.
And Dreadfell is TOUGH for a rogue at lvl 20 despite some of the wimpy undeads.
I also played through all available side quests (except Mark of the Spellblaze and Elven Ruins) with a shalore rogue with normal XP, and I was clvl 25 upon entering Dreadfell. This does not include any farportal zones. If one explores farportal zones extensively, then DarkGod is correct: a character can be clvl 30+ before entering Dreadfell, which is a bit of an overkill if you ask me.

Aquillion
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#10 Post by Aquillion »

Remember, if you introduce any sort of persistent saves, you'll also have to consider how to deal with save-scumming.

I don't think that it's necessarily a bad idea (the original roguelike system was designed for older straightforward single-dungeon games with a much shorter playtime and much less investment in your character's story than ToME has grown into), but there's lots of other factors to consider.

(Honestly, one thing I might recommend instead is to have it so a 'chapter' or some other milestone allows you to start a new character at higher level rather than level 1. The early levels of many classes are kinda dull for players who have spent a while playing the endgame. This would allow players to, in effect, rebuild their characters, which could be good or bad, but at the very least I kind of feel that letting people unlock the ability to start at level 4 or 8 wouldn't break anything. It could be unlocked per-class, encouraging players to explore many different classes from the beginning without forcing them to replay often kinda same-y early levels with a class they already mastered.)

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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#11 Post by marvalis »

I think you just invented 'save points' or 'resurrection shrines'.
Many of the older games had these in one form of another. A place where you can save the game. If you die, you resurrect.
Have a save point at the beginning of every character. Disable other methods of saving.

Guild wars 1 has this system where you gain death penalty when you die. You can get up to 60% DP lowering your health 60%. That means you die more often. The same dungeon would be possible without death if you do not have any DP. You can even get 10% more hp with a morale boost. Bottom line: If the level is to hard and the person keeps dying, a penalty on death means the game is no longer enjoyable.

How about each time you die you get a temporary boost to your HP and dmg (you rage) and your score is halved? This way you can overcome a really bad situation, but if you die on purpose then you will have the lowest possible score. Or whatever :P.

Obviously this would be a different game mode.
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Re: Introducing "Chapters": a modern playing mode

#12 Post by Aquillion »

marvalis wrote:How about each time you die you get a temporary boost to your HP and dmg (you rage) and your score is halved? This way you can overcome a really bad situation, but if you die on purpose then you will have the lowest possible score. Or whatever :P.
A lot of people don't care about score, though. The game shouldn't become too easy if you have that sort of mindset.

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