Request for Slow resistance

[Hirumakai]

I'd like to put in a request that resistance to slows be added, or have it associated with a current resist. As far as I can tell in the code, there is no way to save or achieve immunity against this effect. At high values, this can be just as bad as a classic stun/freeze effect, and just as lethal.

A NPC character with Glyph of Fatigue, for example, can have it at talent level 8 for a 0.76 slow for 5 turns at level 50. This effect is far worse than currently implemented stuns and freeze, two effects which it is possible to resist 100%. At the insane difficulty, it can pass 1.0, which I'm not sure how the code would handle.

[Goblinz]

eek that does sound nasty. I wonder how much of this is tied to saves. but this is a problem, especially as more enemies are add (also if there was a theoretical evil campaign there would be a need). Oh if slow gets above 100 (I have done this when coding) it starts to throw lua errors and the actor cannot act

[Hirumakai]

I wonder how much of this is tied to saves.

As far as I can tell from the code, there is no save (physical,spell, or mental) against the Glyph of Fatigue. Unless the save is checked at the setEffect() function stage, but I don't believe so.

[tiger_eye]

In general, slow effects don't last particularly long or slow by a whole lot. Most slow only by 30%, and I believe slow effects don't stack. I think the only two way to be slowed 100% or more is if a randomly generated NPC has "Kinetic Leech" at talent level 30 or higher (and this one is checked against physical resists) or "Glyph of Fatigue" above talent level 11.4. All the other talents that slow (that I've checked) are done in a way to ensure positive global speed.

[Hirumakai]

Are you suggesting, as a rule, should slows be limited to 30% then?

Mostly for my own edification, I dived into the code to see what I could find, and I thought I'd share those findings here.

Doing a quick grep -r EFF_SLOW * on the /modules/tome/ directory reports back the following:

Code: Select all

data/damage_types.lua:			target:setEffect(target.EFF_SLOW, 3, {power=0.3})   -- Corresponds to SLIME damage, no save
data/damage_types.lua:				target:setEffect(target.EFF_SLOW, 7, {power=dam})  -- Corresponds to SLOW damage, save vs spell
data/damage_types.lua:			target:setEffect(target.EFF_SLOW, 4, {power=0.2})  -- Corresponds to BLOOD_BOIL, no save
data/damage_types.lua:				target:setEffect(target.EFF_SLOW, 4, {power=dam})  -- Corresponds to MINDSLOW, save vs physical
data/damage_types.lua:				target:setEffect(target.EFF_SLOW, 2, {power=dam}, true)  -- Corresponds to CHRONOSLOW, save vs spell
data/talents/divine/glyphs.lua:				who:setEffect(who.EFF_SLOW, 5, {power=self.dam})  -- Corresponds to glyph of fatigue, no save, 0.2 + 0.07 * talents
data/talents/misc/npcs.lua:			target:setEffect(target.EFF_SLOW, 3, {power=0.3})  -- Corresponds to "Speed Sap" talent, no save?
data/talents/techniques/archery.lua:			target:setEffect(target.EFF_SLOW, 7, {power=util.bound((self:combatAttack() * 0.15 * self:getTalentLevel(t)) / 100, 0.1, 0.4)})  -- Corresponds to Crippling Shot, save vs physical, capped at 0.4

CHRONOSLOW is used in the Chronomancy spell, Slow. At 100 spell power, 5.0 talent, and 300 paradox is slows for 0.375. At 600 paradox it would slow for 0.52. It is formulated so it shouldn't be able to hit 1.0.

SLOW is used in Congeal time, temporal spell. Its effect is 0.08 times talent level. It goes over 1.0 at 12.5 talent points. Even at 8.0 it slows for 0.64.

MINDSLOW is used by the already mentioned Kinetic leech with weak scaling (0.1 + 0.03 * talents)

There's also a EFF_GLOOM_SLOW and a EFF_MADNESS_SLOW floating around the code, but those seem to be limited to 0.3 power.

So at the moment there's a couple of powers which outright break in Insane mode, and are quite lethal in just Rogue-like. Should those powers be reigned in? Or should a general defense be put in?

[Grey]

A bit of both, I'd say. I think any sort of slowing should be capped at 50%, and every status effect should have a save facility (physical, mental or spell). Not just for player survivability, but also to stop players using cheap effects on bosses.

A general slow resistance might be interesting, or maybe it could just be tied in with temporal resistance? Preferably it would reduce the strength of the effect rather than simply be a hit or miss.

[Hirumakai]

Capping at 50% slow is still very powerful. From a player perspective, its indistinguishable from a 1 turn stun - except that stun resistance doesn't work on it. While I agree getting saves against all sources of it would be good, you still need an absolute defense, because of the Rogue-like and Insane difficulty settings.

Unfortunately, temporal resistance isn't readily available on enough end game items, since like Stun and Confusion, it is a must have resistance if even if the effect caps at 50%. You'd need more items and custom designed artifacts that include temporal resistance in addition to other effects, to make an effective end game setup on the Rogue-like difficulty. If that improvement in itemization were to happen, it would be a suitable choice. It would also make teleportation resistance easier to integrate into setups.

One option I'd like to see considered is get it coupled into Stun resistance, since its similar to the old stun effect (and current daze/flame shock effects - both of which are mitigated by stun resistance I believe). You lose a bunch of turns now or you lose a turn every now and then spread over time.

A straight up addition of a Slow only resistance would probably be bad, as that would add yet another resistance you'd need to itemize for, and make end game setups even harder to put together. We can't keep arbitrarily adding more damage/effect type defenses. At some point you need to sit down and see if there are a sufficient number of unique ways to put together end game equipment.

[Grey]

The game has had slows in this form for a long time, so it's clearly not a game-ender. I certainly think there should be some defences (saves at least), but I wouldn't want to see it become so easily resisted that it no longer even has a place in the game.

[tiger_eye]

At one point when speeds were being updated, global speed was constrained to be above 20% (slow) and below 1500% (fast), iirc. Perhaps these limits could be reintroduced.

ymmv, but being slowed has never really bothered me in a game. I can still use a wild infusion to remove the effect, use whatever means I have to escape, or just ignore it altogether. "Game breaking" slow effects are provincial to high level randomly generated uniques, so I'd say this is potentially an issue with these npcs, not slow effects. High level slows that have the potential to slow a considerable amount should probably be checked against appropriate saves, as is done with "Kinetic Leech". I've never used talents that slow enemies, so I don't know how unfair those can become. If there were a "Slow resistance/immunity" attribute, I'm sure I would just ignore it.

[evouga]

Capping slow at 50% seems reasonable. Anything higher is basically indistinguishable from old-style Stun, with no chance at resisting or escaping.

[Final Master]

At what point have slow effects gotten to any status of worry? What causes this now, and in general gameplay, is it any real threat outside of very specific instances?

[tiger_eye]

Slow is way different than the old style stun. If you were stunned for 10 turns, then you couldn't do anything for 10 turns. If you're slowed by 50% for 10 turns, then you can still perform 5 actions within that duration, which can include removing the effect, escaping, or debilitating the aggressor. Hence, being slowed is not nearly as deadly. A 50% slow cap seems waaaaay too high for me, but final judgement, I'm sure, belongs to DG

[Grey]

Well going above 50% gets harsher and harsher. 66% means 1 in 3 action, 75% means 1 in 4 actions. Consider both how this disables the PC and bosses - we don't want either to be too easily killed.

[tiger_eye]

As FinalMaster suggested, an example in gameplay where slow is an issue might be nice.

Also, I believe physical saves reduces the duration of slow effects--isn't this good enough? If you want more protection from being slowed, then increase your physical saves (which makes sense).

[Hirumakai]

Just for full disclosure, I'm probably over-reacting to the 76% slow my level 47 rogue-like character got hit with in the Vor Bastion (and promptly hit for over 1000 damage from 3 remaining non-boss enemies on screen - the boss having been dispatched the previous round). So my arguments should be taken with a large grain of salt.

My point being, when playing at Rogue-like difficulty (or I suppose Insane), even rarely occurring situations should still be balanced or have a method of being dealt with.

I'll point out most slows people have been encountering are 30% slows. Pretty much the only time you see more than 30% slows from NPCs is normally the new custom bosses. However, given that those are on-demand with the Far portal, and also some dungeons (Vor Bastion in the case where I noticed it).

When I look at slows, I generally look at them from the other way, for easier comparison to other effects. A 30% slow is a 42% speed boost for the enemy, comparable to Essence of Speed or Speed Rune. The 50% slow works out to a 100% global speed boost. I haven't seen any global speed powers of that magnitude.

I'd personally suggest slows be limited to 30%, if we don't want to go down a resistance route, rather than a save route. Mostly because relying on saves at Rogue-like difficulty or higher is going to fail at some point.