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12:05 PM <Fortescue> TransientPeople: go look up Hurricane of Pain
12:05 PM <Fortescue> it is everything you want and more
12:06 PM <TransientPeople> Opening the doc now
12:06 PM <Fortescue> It knocks puny jerks away while CRUSHING THEM with huge damage
12:07 PM <TransientPeople> OK, reading through now
12:07 PM <TransientPeople> One sec
12:07 PM <Fortescue> I think the only / most reliable way I can encourage you to get 5/5 in things is by tying cooldown to skill rank on things you WANT TO USE A LOT as you said
12:07 PM <TransientPeople> Stunning Blow Change: TP approve
12:07 PM <Fortescue> because you can cap that cooldown so that mobs don't go crazy
12:07 PM <TransientPeople> *Approves
12:07 PM <TransientPeople> This would make it so much less worthless
12:08 PM <TransientPeople> The alternative I can see
12:08 PM <TransientPeople> Is to implement a Monster var
12:08 PM <Fortescue> doesn't work like that
12:08 PM <Fortescue> actors are just actors
12:08 PM <TransientPeople> That triggers post Rank 5 on enemies so they don't advance at the same rate
12:08 PM <Fortescue> the only thing I'm aware you can do with NPCs is not allow them to have a talent period
12:08 PM <TransientPeople> So there's nothing denoting that the PC is the PC?
12:08 PM <Fortescue> nope
12:09 PM <Fortescue> this is why NPCs can unlock Skirmisher for you
12:09 PM <TransientPeople> Interesting.
12:09 PM <TransientPeople> I think the implementation of a 'IsPC'/'IsNotPC' variable would allow for some easy tweaks
12:09 PM <TransientPeople> But I have no idea how hard that might be
12:10 PM <Fortescue> DG wouldn't do it
12:10 PM <Fortescue> An integral part of ToME's balance is tied to how monsters scale with talents
12:10 PM <Fortescue> He loves this system and would not be in favor of segregating it any further
12:10 PM <TransientPeople> Hm
12:10 PM <TransientPeople> Maybe an 'Underdog Bonus'?
12:11 PM <TransientPeople> Like if a hugely out of whack thing happens like 'dude with 25 points in one skill smacks my shit when I'm still stuck at 5', the Underdog gets a major benefit to defenses
12:11 PM <TransientPeople> Because lady luck loves an underdog
12:11 PM <Fortescue> The point of the diminishing returns is to let monsters get rank 30 in x (which they do if you look) without making them able to kill you by looking at you
12:11 PM <Fortescue> unless you're in Madness
12:12 PM <Fortescue> but for the most part DarkGod does not balance for difficulties past Normal, either
12:12 PM <TransientPeople> The problem might be the talent math for those talents then
12:12 PM <TransientPeople> Which is admittedly harder to fix
12:12 PM <TransientPeople> Cause it's a one by one thing
12:13 PM <Fortescue> He has a diminishing return formula he applies to everything basically
12:13 PM <Fortescue> Anywhere it can be
12:13 PM <TransientPeople> Now, for berserkerchat...what's the CD on Deathdance now?
12:13 PM <Fortescue> something like 8 or so
12:13 PM <Fortescue> way too long imo for a skill you want to use really often
12:13 PM <TransientPeople> So if I hit 4 dudes it's a spammable button?
12:13 PM <Fortescue> yup
12:14 PM <TransientPeople> I would push the base on deathdance up to 'is a basic attack'
12:14 PM <TransientPeople> But otherwise this is a real solid idea
12:14 PM <Fortescue> if you hit 4 dudes you multiply the "base" b 4
12:14 PM <Fortescue> by 4
12:14 PM <TransientPeople> The reason why is that that extra 25% damage can be straight up delaying a kill for a round
12:14 PM <TransientPeople> And that means the enemy team takes more actions against you
12:14 PM <Fortescue> yup
12:14 PM <Fortescue> that is the tradeoff
12:14 PM <TransientPeople> And fundamentally, AoE skills are meant to mitigate action disadvantage
12:14 PM <TransientPeople> So it's counterintuitive to make it lower
12:14 PM <Fortescue> and it does
12:15 PM <TransientPeople> Nnnnnni
12:15 PM <TransientPeople> To explain
12:15 PM <Fortescue> keep in mind there are a bunch of speed boosts in these trees
12:15 PM <TransientPeople> If it takes me three turns to do with Deathdance what I can to Execute, I will use Execute every time
12:15 PM <Fortescue> you will have a speed advantage as a Berserker fairly frequently
12:15 PM <Fortescue> I know that
12:15 PM <TransientPeople> Because it means the enemy team is at -1 action per round
12:15 PM <TransientPeople> Ah
12:15 PM <TransientPeople> I see
12:15 PM <TransientPeople> Lemme keep on reading then
12:15 PM <Fortescue> a spammable skill scales very well with speed boosts
12:16 PM <TransientPeople> Holy shit Blood of Warrior
12:16 PM <TransientPeople> *Warriors
12:16 PM <TransientPeople> DAT BEEF
12:16 PM <Fortescue> yeah that one hasn't been looked over by Shibari yet...
12:16 PM <Fortescue> or LEgacy of Warlords
12:16 PM <Fortescue> so they might get toned down some
12:16 PM <TransientPeople> Bringest Them Oneth is also bananas
12:16 PM <TransientPeople> but a very good kind of bananas
12:16 PM <Fortescue> TransientPeople: that category might end up as a new Generic for Berserkers AND Bulwarks
12:16 PM <Fortescue> locked
12:17 PM <TransientPeople> Hmmm
12:17 PM <TransientPeople> Question
12:17 PM <Fortescue> keep in mind a lot of people don't value maxHP very highly
12:17 PM <TransientPeople> Wasn't Hardness the percentage of armor that you actually used?
12:17 PM <Fortescue> so Blood of Warriors would be a tough sell on some people
12:17 PM <TransientPeople> Or am I thinking of the wrong thing?
12:17 PM <Fortescue> yes it is
12:17 PM <TransientPeople> How would that work with saves?
12:17 PM <TransientPeople> Convert X portion of armor to saves?
12:17 PM <Fortescue> You just take the value
12:17 PM <Fortescue> No
12:18 PM <Fortescue> You use your actual Hardiness rating which is a value in your defensive stats
12:18 PM <Fortescue> and rises very quickly with points in Armor Training
12:18 PM <TransientPeople> ...Oh
12:18 PM <Fortescue> You can get almost 100% hardiness with 5/5 Armor Training and Massive armor by themselves
12:18 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah that is amazing
12:18 PM <TransientPeople> I like it, makes a serker super hard to CC
12:19 PM <Fortescue> you would think
12:19 PM <Fortescue> I had 40+ saves vs. all on my post-Prides Berserker and I still got messed up by bad status pretty frequenlty
12:19 PM <Fortescue> I was a Dwarf with Power is Money maxed
12:19 PM <TransientPeople> pridecasters.txt
12:19 PM <Fortescue> and some saves on gear
12:20 PM <TransientPeople> Also holy shit Power Stomp
12:20 PM <Fortescue> POWER
12:20 PM <Fortescue> STOMP
12:20 PM <TransientPeople> 35% damage reduction is godlike
12:20 PM <Fortescue> How does THAT make you feel like a Berserker?
12:20 PM <TransientPeople> This is the stuff I like to see more of
12:20 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah, that's the stuff
12:21 PM <TransientPeople> It's a potent defensive buff but since it works as offense you don't feel bad for maxing it over your killmore
12:21 PM <Fortescue> 35% might be a bit too great
12:21 PM <Fortescue>
12:21 PM <TransientPeople> Honestly I think it's fine. It's for what, 5 turns?
12:21 PM <Fortescue> 6
12:21 PM <devilmaydry> blargh
12:21 PM <TransientPeople> Six, right
12:22 PM <Fortescue> unless I specify "raw" rank it means effective rank
12:22 PM <TransientPeople> That's still a lot of time for a class that has to work hard to clean mobs
12:22 PM <Fortescue> work.. hard?
12:22 PM <Fortescue> Berserker has some of the highest damage in the game
12:22 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah, but it tends to get mobbed super hard
12:22 PM <Fortescue> even with lower base Death Dance does TONS
12:22 PM <TransientPeople> Like
12:22 PM <TransientPeople> A familiar thing to see with my serkers
12:22 PM <devilmaydry> Fortescue are you playing Guts
12:22 PM <Fortescue> and new Execute is REALLY REALLY DAMN STRONG
12:22 PM <TransientPeople> Is a literally full screen of enemies
12:22 PM <TransientPeople> Surrounding me while I go hack hack hack chop
12:22 PM <Fortescue> devilmaydry: no I am improving ToME's Berserker class
12:23 PM <devilmaydry> ah
12:23 PM <devilmaydry> make the class Gutsa
12:23 PM <Fortescue> yeah TransientPeople I think spammable Death Dance will help with that
12:23 PM <devilmaydry> Guts*
12:23 PM <TransientPeople> This isn't a bad thing, I feel it's a core part of the berserker experience
12:23 PM <TransientPeople> But it's something that is very very noticeable
12:23 PM <Fortescue> TransientPeople: you will find that experienced players are boring and will always fight 1 enemy at a time
12:23 PM <TransientPeople> That you basically have to think five rounds ahead because you need to plan your battle breather while unstoppable is down and so on
12:23 PM <Fortescue> they will do everything possible to force a 1v1 scenario
12:23 PM <Fortescue> all game long
12:23 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah so do I admittedly
12:23 PM <TransientPeople> But one of my fondest tome memories
12:24 PM <Fortescue> I think I would kill myself before I'd play ToME like that
12:24 PM <TransientPeople> Is falling into a red dragon den
12:24 PM <TransientPeople> And ending up facing multiple screenfuls of hatchlings, wryms and drakes
12:24 PM <TransientPeople> I never felt so berserkery before
12:24 PM <Fortescue> wait until you see Hurricane
12:24 PM <TransientPeople> This was when serkers had shitty stamina regainers beyond Bloodbath and the one that gives per-round regen
12:25 PM <Fortescue> It is pretty much the definitive 2H attack in ToME (or would be)
12:25 PM <TransientPeople> So it was a total rush to fight like a 300 turn battle planned way in advance all the way
112:25 PM <TransientPeople> AND WINNING
12:25 PM <TransientPeople> OK, enough gushing about serkers
12:25 PM <devilmaydry> also Waffleman I'm surprised you let yourself get tipsy so easily
12:25 PM <TransientPeople> Gonna keep on reading
12:25 PM <Waffleman> Blame the roll
12:26 PM <TransientPeople> Remind me, what did Relentless Fury do?
12:26 PM <Fortescue> gives MASSIVE stamina regen and a huge speed buff
12:26 PM <Fortescue> for like, almost 10 turns
12:27 PM <Fortescue> It is one of the best skills Berserker has, just hard to use when you have lots of stamina regen
12:27 PM <TransientPeople> Definitely sounds like something worthwhile
12:27 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah
12:27 PM <TransientPeople> Can I ask one thing BTW?
12:27 PM <Fortescue> sure
12:27 PM <TransientPeople> Keep Deathdance's STA cost at like 25+
12:27 PM <TransientPeople> Because if it becomes spammable it will be the perfect 'I want to run myself out' button
12:27 PM <TransientPeople> Which is needed to set up Relentless Fury I feel
12:28 PM <Fortescue> TransientPeople: well letting you use Relentless at 60% instead of 30% would go a long way to fixing that
12:28 PM <Fortescue> but yes Death Dance would not go below 25
12:28 PM <TransientPeople> Excellent
12:28 PM <TransientPeople> That'll help a bunch
12:28 PM <TransientPeople> Aaaaaand
12:28 PM <Fortescue> so will resetting Execute on use
12:28 PM <Fortescue> on kill I mean
12:28 PM <TransientPeople> I just got to Bloodthirsty Warrior
12:28 PM <Fortescue> you'll be spamming that a lot more
12:28 PM <TransientPeople> And I have only one thing left to say
12:28 PM <Fortescue> yay you got to the biggest change
12:28 PM <Fortescue> a really important change
12:29 PM <TransientPeople> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3ALwKeSEYs
12:29 PM <TransientPeople> This is basically what I always wanted for serkers
12:29 PM <Fortescue> I'm at work don't make me watch taht
12:29 PM <TransientPeople> It combos so beautifully with unstoppable
12:29 PM <TransientPeople> In that case let me text it
12:29 PM <TransientPeople> YES! YES!
12:29 PM <Fortescue> good
12:29 PM <Fortescue> glad you agree
12:30 PM <TransientPeople> But seriously, it's the perfect fit - fight a shitton of enemies until you get low, press the Unstoppable button, COMMENCE CARNAGE
12:30 PM <Fortescue> yup
12:30 PM <Fortescue> Unstoppable is still locked btw
12:30 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah, but now you can start building for it from the get-go
12:30 PM <TransientPeople> Which is great
12:30 PM <Fortescue> yup
12:30 PM <TransientPeople> Berserker Fury is just such a smart, smart tweak
12:31 PM <TransientPeople> Gives you that 'I WANT TO MAX THIS NOW' skill I was talking about earlier
12:31 PM <Fortescue> This tree is meant to be the "core" of being a battle rager
12:31 PM <TransientPeople> It's like the Rampage for Berserkers
12:31 PM <TransientPeople> EXCEPT IT STARTS UNLOCKED, THE CRAZY TRAIN HAS NO BREAKS
12:31 PM <Fortescue> I think Bloodtbath specifically is too important to lock away
12:31 PM <Fortescue> It is needed early and it is iconic
12:32 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah
12:32 PM <TransientPeople> Bloody Butcher looks a little too 'bonusey' but it sets up Massacre too
12:32 PM <TransientPeople> So the whole tree has amazing synergy
12:32 PM <TransientPeople> I like it
12:32 PM <Fortescue> Bloody Butcher is core as heck
12:32 PM <Fortescue> It gives you a stacking bleed on potentially EVERYTHING you do
12:32 PM <TransientPeople> ...Wait.
12:32 PM <TransientPeople> it stacks?
12:33 PM <TransientPeople> Doesn't say that on the doc
12:33 PM <Fortescue> idk if you knew that bleeds stacked in ToME
12:33 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah I didn't
12:33 PM <Fortescue> all Bleeds in ToME stack
12:33 PM <TransientPeople> THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING
12:33 PM <TransientPeople> God tier skill
12:33 PM <Fortescue> heh and you were excited before...
12:33 PM <TransientPeople> 10/10 would max erryday
12:33 PM <Fortescue> So yeah. This is the beast I want to unleash
12:33 PM <TransientPeople> OK, going through the locked trees now
12:33 PM <TransientPeople> I see that Cornac Supremacy will make a massive comeback for berserkers
12:33 PM <Fortescue> could
12:34 PM <TransientPeople> Because Superiority is basically 'yo, you don't need combat accuracy anymore, GO NUTS'
12:34 PM <Fortescue> the goal was 3 very competitive locked trees (4 I guess with Unbreakable Body generic)
12:34 PM <TransientPeople> Oh man foehammer
12:34 PM <TransientPeople> So good
12:34 PM <Fortescue>
12:34 PM <TransientPeople> Hey Fortescue, is this tree a level-1 onwards tree?
12:34 PM <TransientPeople> Or level 10+?
12:35 PM <Fortescue> the locked will all be level 10 onwards except probably Unbreakable Body
12:35 PM <Fortescue> well
12:35 PM <Fortescue> hmm
12:35 PM <Fortescue> I guess if you really wanted to do 2H Superiority instead of inveseting in 2H Assault maybe that should be an option
12:35 PM <TransientPeople> I'd consider making Superiority a L1 option
12:35 PM <TransientPeople> Because it's so neat
12:35 PM <Fortescue> That isn't a bad idea
12:36 PM <TransientPeople> Hurricane of Pain ToTY
12:36 PM <Fortescue> I would probably replace Powerful Grip though
12:36 PM <Fortescue> ToTY ?
12:36 PM <TransientPeople> Talent of the Year
12:36 PM <Fortescue> ahahahaha
12:36 PM <Fortescue> I told you
I said you'd love it12:36 PM <TransientPeople> This is literally what I wanted out of Fearless Cleave, it's so good
12:36 PM <Fortescue> yup
12:36 PM <Fortescue> best part, that whole tree got past Shibari already
12:37 PM <Fortescue> DG is the only person left I have to get past
12:37 PM <Fortescue> Shibari is a VERY competent mechanical designer
12:37 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah this whole tree looks SMOOTH
12:37 PM <TransientPeople> Honestly so long as this and the berserker tree make the cut I wouldn't need anything else
12:37 PM <TransientPeople> It gives the Zerk a perfect niche
12:38 PM <Fortescue> I might actually replace the passive with another attack, I'd just have to think of what to use
12:38 PM <Fortescue> because the intent of this tree was to give Berserkers a unique attack tree no other 2H users could have
12:38 PM <Fortescue> because it is silly they share almost all of their attacks
12:38 PM <TransientPeople> Hmm
12:38 PM <TransientPeople> Do Zerks have any other knockback effects beyond Hurricane of Pain?
12:38 PM <Fortescue> nope
12:39 PM <Fortescue> They also have no other targeted movement skills
12:39 PM <TransientPeople> Maybe give it a Bowling Bash effect
12:39 PM <Fortescue> er, free target
12:39 PM <Fortescue> heh I'm not touching Hurricane again since I squeeked this version past Shibari
12:39 PM <TransientPeople> Hit a dude, send him flying, if it hits another dude everybody in a radius 1 is sent flying, repeating as needed
12:39 PM <Fortescue> nope
12:39 PM <TransientPeople> Two Handed Pinball
12:39 PM <Fortescue> Won't happen
12:40 PM <TransientPeople> Too much enemy control?
12:40 PM <Fortescue> BUT that gives me a good idea for the new attack I was just saying I need to design
12:40 PM <Fortescue>
12:40 PM <TransientPeople> Excellent
12:40 PM <Fortescue> I would probably drop Foe Hammer into tier 2 and make tier 3 an attack that knocks enemies around, yes
12:41 PM <Fortescue> I would just need to be careful it isn't the same thing as Massive Blow
12:41 PM <Fortescue> or whatever the one with bonus dmg for knocking into a wall is
12:41 PM <Fortescue> the Prodigy
12:41 PM <TransientPeople> Hmm
12:41 PM <TransientPeople> Could always just make the first hit do damage
12:41 PM <TransientPeople> And keep the knock-around effect afterwards
12:41 PM <TransientPeople> Mostly that's the part that seems neat, causing absolute chaos with a swing
12:41 PM <Fortescue> I'll think about it, good suggestion
12:42 PM <Fortescue> now tell me how cool throwing axes is
12:42 PM <TransientPeople> Axe Wrench looks ridiculous against big foes
12:42 PM <TransientPeople> Is that like 300% damage or so or am I going crazy?
12:43 PM <Fortescue> It is
12:43 PM <TransientPeople> It's totally in theme though, Zerks going full viking on dudes and throwing hatchets
12:44 PM <Fortescue> THROW AN AXE is my motto
12:44 PM <Fortescue> you're really gonna like the new Unstoppable tree too
12:45 PM <Fortescue> this whole document is so full of awesome I'm surprised it hasn't exploded
12:45 PM <TransientPeople> Doing Legacy of the Warlords now
12:45 PM <TransientPeople> Shattering Scream continues to unimpress me
12:45 PM <TransientPeople> I feel like it's too finicky to use as it is now
12:45 PM <Fortescue> Finicky? it is a gigantic AoE stun
12:45 PM <TransientPeople> Yeah but like
12:45 PM <Fortescue> maybe you don't understand how powerful stun is?
12:45 PM <TransientPeople> The cool visual here is 'trying to enspell me? Range me? - YOU'
12:45 PM <TransientPeople> No I do
12:45 PM <TransientPeople> It's just that stun loses power in the east
12:46 PM <TransientPeople> Because tons of enemies start packing stun resists
12:46 PM <TransientPeople> So the crowd control is appreciated but it's like, only half of it
12:46 PM <Fortescue> hmm. I could also say it ignores Stun Resist since the duration is so short
12:46 PM <TransientPeople> That's one of two ways to solve it yeah
12:46 PM <TransientPeople> The other one I was thinking of is this
12:47 PM <TransientPeople> Make Shattering Scream a sort of 'projectile counter' - % chance of triggering when a projectile comes within X radius of you and unleashing a warcry that destroys projectiles and has a stun chance
12:47 PM <Fortescue> never happen
12:47 PM <Fortescue> randomly applying the best CC in the game is not a thing that would ever make it past Shibari or DG
12:48 PM <TransientPeople> I'd argue Confused is the best CC actually
12:48 PM <Fortescue> It would also be way too situational
12:48 PM <TransientPeople> Because basically nothing has decent Confusion resist
12:48 PM <TransientPeople> So it's always gonna reliably give you a survival buffer
12:48 PM <TransientPeople> I do agree with the situationality though
12:48 PM <TransientPeople> And making a resist piercing stun is probably a good fix
12:48 PM <TransientPeople> Makes it more stun centric than projectile poppin', and that's fine
12:49 PM <Fortescue> between the long cooldown and the low duration I think I might squeek that past
12:49 PM <Fortescue> because you have to also consider enemies using this against you
12:49 PM <Fortescue> and how mad you'd be if you got stunned with 100% resist
12:50 PM <Fortescue> but if it was only for 3 out of 17 turns... that is a lot less scary
12:50 PM <TransientPeople> To be fair though
12:50 PM <TransientPeople> That basically already happens unless you have 100% resist
12:50 PM <TransientPeople> Because enemies just shuck so much shit at you SOMETHING gets past the percentile odds
12:50 PM <Drakkar> 100% racist
12:50 PM <Fortescue> yup
12:50 PM — Drakkar throws TransientPeople to the horses
12:50 PM <TransientPeople> So yeah, I think it's good
12:50 PM <TransientPeople> Overall I really like all this
12:50 PM <Fortescue> I figured you would
12:50 PM <TransientPeople> I hope DG is convinced to go for it because it's all aces
12:51 PM <TransientPeople> It really gives the Berserker an identity
12:51 PM <TransientPeople> As opposed to 'dude that uses a two hnader' like it was before
12:51 PM <Fortescue> I'm going to copy paste this entire conversation into a forum post
12:51 PM <Fortescue> if you dont' mind
12:52 PM <Fortescue> gonna plop it onto the end of the thread where the doc is hosted
12:52 PM <TransientPeople> Sounds like a plan to me