Merge marauder, berserker, and bulwark

[comrade raoul]

1.05? They were widely (and probably reasonably) seen as underpowered, so they got Bloodthirst and Thuggery got turned into a generic tree.

I felt like the first three Bloodthirst talents fit the class nicely, and they really did need some means of defending themselves against casters, but I don't think Unstoppable was the answer--there's no finesse to it.

Come to think of it, I wonder whether some of these other possibilities would work:

(a) better stamina recovery and some way of functioning at negative HP, like mobile Bulwarks, so as to take advantage of True Grit; or
(b) a way of making themselves very hard to target at range for short periods of time, not unlike a narrower, more in-your-face version of Stealth; or
(c) a talent in the Tactical tree (modifying the first or third?) such that ranged attacks targeted at marauders would have a chance to hit adjacent opponents instead (maybe you'd check your defense versus your enemy's accuracy)--you'd be safest in melee!

[tylor]

Hmm, would class with all abilities of Archer, Brawler, Rogue, Bulwark and Berserker be really OP?

[Grey]

1.05? They were widely (and probably reasonably) seen as underpowered, so they got Bloodthirst and Thuggery got turned into a generic tree.

So they become victim to the power creep that every class in the game suffers... Shame, I like having some challenge classes.

[comrade raoul]

Hmm, would class with all abilities of Archer, Brawler, Rogue, Bulwark and Berserker be really OP?

I just meant one! (And in lieu of Bloodthirst.)

[darkgod]

1.05? They were widely (and probably reasonably) seen as underpowered, so they got Bloodthirst and Thuggery got turned into a generic tree.

So they become victim to the power creep that every class in the game suffers... Shame, I like having some challenge classes.

This means that you have won and thus can write me more lore, right ?

[Parcae2]

Merging all three into one class might be a bit much. How about merging Berserker and Bulwark? Each only has about one unique tree. Currently, there's no real reason to go Berserker over Marauder or Bulwark over Arcane Blade.

[Sirrocco]

This has actually been asked before. The basic answer we came to at the time is that berserker and bulwark play very differently, in spite of the similarity in skill lists, and having them be in two different classes makes things easier for the new players to figure out - important for the initially unlocked classes.

Speaking of which, now that we have a large number of classes to play with, it might be worthwhile to reconsider which ones should be initially unlocked. Arcane Blades in particular are known to be tricky to use properly, and I don't know about shadowblades. Wyrmics, on the other hand, seem to me to be pretty straightforward, or if not them, then perhaps a new wilder class designed for relatively easy builds. There was an idea some time back for a spider-based wilder doing the rogue thing that might be made to work.

[Grakor456]

I'd be all for making one of the wilder classes initially unlocked instead of Arcane Blade and Shadowblade. Summoner is an obvious choice since they're pretty easy to understand and a very "safe" class to play, and the Summoner unlock is dead easy anyway. It'd be kind of nice to have a "caster" alternative to the Alchemist as an initial unlock, too.

[malboro_urchin]

I'd be all for making one of the wilder classes initially unlocked instead of Arcane Blade and Shadowblade. Summoner is an obvious choice since they're pretty easy to understand and a very "safe" class to play, and the Summoner unlock is dead easy anyway. It'd be kind of nice to have a "caster" alternative to the Alchemist as an initial unlock, too.

I'm in favor of this. Arcane Blades and Shadowblades are not only magical, but also very confusing and difficult to build properly for someone new to the game. Hell, the only experience I have with Shadowblades is using stealth, crit multiplier, & Illuminate to unlock Marauder (which I unlocked so that I could play HousePet's Anarchist class)!

Additionally, I believe this idea would highlight the contrast between nature and magic that's pretty central/fundamental to the world of Maj'Eyal.

[Sirrocco]

Yeah - but the early, easy unlocks are one of the things that sucks you into the game, and I'd hate to lose that. Best answer is to give the two blade classes easy unlocks. Hmmm...

- Arcane blade unlock: deal elemental damage with a melee attack (not staff or mindstar) (or, alternately, just equip a non-staff/mindstar melee weapon that somehow deals elemental damage - specifically, lightning, fire, or cold).

- Shadowblade unlock: use a mana ability as a class that doesn't start with any (ie, from escort rescue or buying staff mastery)

I also like the bit where we'd be starting with one class that uses mana, one that uses equilibrium, and a bunch that use equilibrium. It fits, somehow.

[Davion Fuxa]

I personally think it is fine having the unlocks as they are now; but the Arcane Blade might be an exception to this as it is one of the harder/more complicated classes in the game. Ignoring the Arcane Blade for the moment, there is a good mix of different but easy classes locked that I think deserve to be locked just as much as some of the more difficult classes might be.

I'll also note that I don't see locking the Shadowblade as a good idea - the class arguable is both not that much harder or complicated then the Rogue.

[Grey]

I think we *should* have difficult classes like Arcane Blades in the starting line-up, as they give a complex and interesting option for new players. If you only show new players the easy options they might not appreciate the full depth of the game.

[Davion Fuxa]

The Arcane Blade takes depth to the point that a player is sent down a bottomless pit - I don't think it is doing much of a disservice to limit it until later.

[Sirrocco]

Grey... pause and consider a moment. Some players are going to want deep, complex, challenging character types at first. Some are going to want relatively simple and straightforward. The ones who want the deep, complex stuff are likely going to get their first unlocks pretty quickly, at which point the list of starting classes won't matter as much. In particular, I don't think anyone's suggesting that Arcane Blade or Shadowblade be anything later than early game.

[Grey]

I broke my teeth on ToME with the Arcane Blade. Still my favourite class! Game might not have grabbed me if it wasn't a straight up option :)

I generally dislike unlocks anyway, mind.