The Defining Features of ToME4

[jotwebe]

A Crawl fan? Some people list auto-explore as a weakness of Crawl, rather than a strength. It doesn't address the real issue of dungeons being boring and low on content, making movement between fights dull. There are other ways of dealing with this, such as:

I'm with Mithril on this one. Auto-explore is one of these "once you get used to it, you never want to go without" things. Also the issue (with auto-explore) isn't dungeons being boring, but dungeons being fiddly and a hassle to explore every nook and cranny of.

[eliotn]

It would be cool if there was a method to sell items outside of the shop, before you get the transmogrification chest. You should only need to go to a shop to buy items. Selling them should be streamlined, as the focus of ToME is combat.

I propose a quick travel feature, allowing you to warp to any place/NPC on the minimap that you know exists. Also, why not have the area automatically mapped out beforehand?

To point newbies in the right direction, there should be warnings upon entering a new level, if it is much too difficult, or if a quest would be too difficult to complete. I feel that there might be aggravating deaths if newbies don't know the order to complete branches in.

I second changing the alchemist's quests to require boss drops. This will replace the scummy mechanic with a desire to explore certain branches. If you don't want to have bosses do this, give the role to a miniboss. Just make it clear to the player which branch and level the component is on, and give the component to the player when they defeat the boss, irregardless of if they accepted the quest.

[edge2054]

To point newbies in the right direction, there should be warnings upon entering a new level, if it is much too difficult, or if a quest would be too difficult to complete. I feel that there might be aggravating deaths if newbies don't know the order to complete branches in.

The temporal rift is a good spot for something like this. A pop up that says, "Are you sure you want to enter? There's no telling where you'll end up or if you'll be able to make it back." Yes/No

The place can be a death trap and without a set of stairs underneath your feet a lot of new players probably stumble into this zone and die very quickly. At least if there was a warning they could say to themselves, maybe I should have listened to the warning.

[Dwarf_Hammer]

A Crawl fan? Some people list auto-explore as a weakness of Crawl, rather than a strength. It doesn't address the real issue of dungeons being boring and low on content, making movement between fights dull. There are other ways of dealing with this, such as:
- more vaults, especially mini vaults that don't have high level content or gear and are just a way of adding in extra enemies to fight in specific designs (Trollmire could do with a few more of these to break up the terrain)
- enemies that seek you out or move about randomly, rather than sitting and waiting for you to find them
- tighter level generators, with less corridors and empty spaces

I'm not sure how having auto-explore can be a weakness. Players can just ignore the feature if it somehow offends them. Most players love it. I didn't care for it at first, but I eventually started using it... after a couple of years.

[edge2054]

The reason some cite auto-explore features as a weakness is because it encourages boring dungeon design. If a 'feature' is so boring you can and should automate it then doesn't that say something about the feature itself? (feature in this case being map exploration) Auto-explore is a nice way to patch up how boring and tedious dungeon exploration can be but it is a patch. If something is so lame and requires so little decision making that I'm better off having my computer do it for me then what's the point of it? I sit down to play to be entertained, challenged, and pass the time, not watch my computer run through a rat maze for me.

More puzzles, more vaults, more interesting dungeon design. These all sound like more engaging options to me. When I play I want to be engaged.

[Mithril]

The reason some cite auto-explore features as a weakness is because it encourages boring dungeon design. If a 'feature' is so boring you can and should automate it then doesn't that say something about the feature itself? (feature in this case being map exploration) Auto-explore is a nice way to patch up how boring and tedious dungeon exploration can be but it is a patch. If something is so lame and requires so little decision making that I'm better off having my computer do it for me then what's the point of it? I sit down to play to be entertained, challenged, and pass the time, not watch my computer run through a rat maze for me.

More puzzles, more vaults, more interesting dungeon design. These all sound like more engaging options to me. When I play I want to be engaged.

Tediousness from dungeon running is mainly not due to the design of the dungeon. Since there are persistent dungeons the most optimal strategy is to explore every nook and cranny of the dungeon. In the end you inevitable start squinting at the minimap trying to see if you have missed something and likely travel a great back and forth to squeeze out the last black squares.

Something that I very automatic is not very exciting. Simply repeatedly clicking or pressing numerous keys to go to an unknown area takes no skill and is just boring. Better to automate it. Cannot be fixed by better dungeon design.

Auto-explore of course stops the movement anything interesting is discovered so it in no way mean an automatic bot. It just takes away one of the most boring elements of the game, transporting oneself until something interesting happens.

Auto-explore seems to fit right into the spirit of Tome. More fighting quality time, less tedious repetitive time wasting dealing with tasks that take no skill.

[bricks]

Cannot be fixed by better dungeon design.

Statements like this really irk me because they suggest that pursuing the alternative can't possibly be worthwhile. There's a huge difference in exploring, say, Trollmire, the Ruins of Kor'Pul, and the Maze. If dungeons were closer to Kor'pul and less random and fidgety like Trollmire or super-dense and ubiquitous like the Maze, I'd enjoy exploration a great deal more. The recent changes to Trollmire did indeed make it more enjoyable to explore (although getting charged by eight trolls and Prox from halfway across the map is a recurring issue).

That said, I would like an auto-explore feature, just for the sake of finding those easy-to-miss corners. That's the only reason. I would rather my suggestion of level feelings for artifact equipment be implemented, since it would tell you if there is really anything interesting worth searching for.

[Mithril]

Cannot be fixed by better dungeon design.

Statements like this really irk me because they suggest that pursuing the alternative can't possibly be worthwhile. There's a huge difference in exploring, say, Trollmire, the Ruins of Kor'Pul, and the Maze. If dungeons were closer to Kor'pul and less random and fidgety like Trollmire or super-dense and ubiquitous like the Maze, I'd enjoy exploration a great deal more. The recent changes to Trollmire did indeed make it more enjoyable to explore (although getting charged by eight trolls and Prox from halfway across the map is a recurring issue).

That said, I would like an auto-explore feature, just for the sake of finding those easy-to-miss corners. That's the only reason. I would rather my suggestion of level feelings for artifact equipment be implemented, since it would tell you if there is really anything interesting worth searching for.

Also Kor'pul would benefit greatly from auto-explore. It removes the time wasting and tediousness of simply moving oneself until something interesting happens. If someone for some reason do not like auto-explore then one can simply avoid using it.

I would suggest that those doubting the usefulness of the feature and who have not tried it to give it a try in Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. Most people seem to absolutely love it.

I would go so far as to say its absence is a reason for some people to stay away from Tome.

[edge2054]

I'm not saying that an auto-explore feature wouldn't be nice. I understand the draw of it. But it is a patch.

Level feelings and more interesting level design (puzzles, secret doors that we don't have to dig to discover with hidden caches of treasure behind them, more interesting npc encounters, patrolling npcs, etc) are all things I'd like to see more then I would auto-explore.

If someone codes an auto-explore feature I'm not saying it shouldn't be added to the game. I'm just saying that it's a patch. It's a way to make tedious things less tedious. Another way to do that is to make exploring more interesting and of the two I'd prefer the later.

[marvalis]

The Defining Features of ToME4

unlocking
By playing the game you gradually unlock certain classes.

Pro: Keeps you buzy?
Problem: I know there are a lot of people out there who want to play mages as their first characters, but are unable to do so due to the unlock system. Oddly, summoners are the first to unlock.
Problem 2: Many unlocks are very difficult to unlock, and are only unlocked by the most dedicated players.

Suggestion: Unlock mages from the start >_>. A lot of people expect this. Or, let them unlock by seeing any magic (skeleton mage uses manathrust -> congratulations you have unlocked mages) .
The question remains how much 'a lot of people' is, and I do not have any hard number on this.

Ideal solution:
An ideal game would last about 30 minutes, at the end of this the player would be dead and have a lot of fun doing so. 30 minutes is your typical coffee-break. If we can manage to engage the player for 30 minutes (while still providing an interesting game if the player somehow survived) and in that same time provide him with an unlock and a new interesting class to play next cofee-break, then I think that is good game design.

About perma death - I have gotten used to adventure mode recently because it is the standard mode, but I prefer rogue-like to be the standard.
Stamina and resource management - lowering the high stamina cost on many skills would mitigate this issue. As a general rule, we do not want to reward the player too much for resting before a battle, and we do not want to punish him too much for fighting a long battle (to prevent people from resting all the time). Limmir's quest is a good benchmark for this.

About equilibrium: For summoners, this is not a problem (jelly). For wilders, this is a major pain in the ass. I started playing a few wyrmics and I got so desperate that I simply edited the recharge of meditation to 30 seconds.

Races distinguished by racial abilities

The defining feature of each race is its talent tree. The other stat bonuses are almost irrelevant, though the hp per level difference can have a significant effect. These talent trees compete with other generic trees for attention, and can compliment other talent trees in interesting ways.

Exceptions: Cornacs, who get a category point instead of a racial tree.
Problems: Little difference in races early on. Some racial abilities are of little use, and should potentially be looked at. Some racial trees are too focused on niche stats, limiting their usefulness across classes. Initial talents on racial trees don't scale with talent level, discouraging investment.

The problem here is not the first talent, the problem is that this talent was never designed for the 5-point talent system. The problem is really the 5-point talent system. There are many skills where it does not make sense to have 5 points, but rather just one point in them. There is currently not a good solution for this. Making it scale better with talent level will make the skill very weak at the start, or to powerful at the end. the only workaround I found, is to make each level of the talent unlock a new talent, like is done with the traps (each level you unlock a new trap).

[Grey]

I think the first tier racials should scale with talent + stat rather than just stat. That way they have a reason to invest points and are more viable to all classes.

[Dwarf_Hammer]

About perma death - I have gotten used to adventure mode recently because it is the standard mode, but I prefer rogue-like to be the standard.

Why isn't roguelike the default difficulty? ToME calls itself a roguelike. I can't bring myself to play adventure mode, because it feels like cheating. I'd like the easier, hand-holding modes to be unlockables. And after suffering a few YASDs the game takes pity on you.

[Grey]

Hah, nice idea... I think the adventure mode isn't entirely against the roguelike spirit though, since there are a discrete number of lives and it doesn't make any individual situation easier (just is more forgiving of mistakes). Also the game now shows roguelike as default if that's what you last played.

[darkgod]

About perma death - I have gotten used to adventure mode recently because it is the standard mode, but I prefer rogue-like to be the standard.

Why isn't roguelike the default difficulty? ToME calls itself a roguelike. I can't bring myself to play adventure mode, because it feels like cheating. I'd like the easier, hand-holding modes to be unlockables. And after suffering a few YASDs the game takes pity on you.

Because I want more players, not less. You tell people "come try it's fun", they try they find it fun and you tell them "see there is an even more purist mode, try it". You dont tell them "come you never ever played a game where you only had one life and no save like that it'll be fun!" then they play, get frustrated super quick then they leave and you tell them "come try adven..oh..he left already"

[Reat]

About perma death - I have gotten used to adventure mode recently because it is the standard mode, but I prefer rogue-like to be the standard.

Why isn't roguelike the default difficulty? ToME calls itself a roguelike. I can't bring myself to play adventure mode, because it feels like cheating. I'd like the easier, hand-holding modes to be unlockables. And after suffering a few YASDs the game takes pity on you.

Because I want more players, not less. You tell people "come try it's fun", they try they find it fun and you tell them "see there is an even more purist mode, try it". You dont tell them "come you never ever played a game where you only had one life and no save like that it'll be fun!" then they play, get frustrated super quick then they leave and you tell them "come try adven..oh..he left already"

I can agree with this statement - being a new ToME player and all. I could never really get into rogue-likes before, especially Nethack, since the learning curve is so steep and death is so common. After dying in the first five minutes of rolling a new character a few dozen times, I'd get bored and give up. I much moreso prefer how hardcore mode is in games in Diablo 2 and Torchlight - you take them up as the ultimate challenge once you've gotten some experience under your belt, not as the first time around when you don't even know how to use your skills and spells. The hardcore-lite ToME has is actually the best idea I've seen in any of these games, making you fear for your life like in regular hardcore but not punish you for accidentally walking into death traps or high-level areas that you're not familiar with.