Preventing over the top skill point juggling

[HousePet]

You would start at level 1 in normal, as that is the normal thing to do...

[edge2054]

The thing I dislike is paying to unlock only the 4/3 last talent points spent. Limiting it like that means I still need to meta-game my experimentation, instead of fooling around and then fixing it all at once later.

What if Darkgod's idea was combined with a guaranteed artifact that let you respec fullly once per game?

[Orangeflame]

I think that this would be best as an option of some sort, perhaps like the idea of optional challenge modifiers. So long as it's visible in the character vault, I have no issue with it. (though being able to filter out results would be nice)
People have an option between Adventure/RL/Exploration, but there is far less prestige and respect for completing the game with 8 lives than with only 1 (and nobody really cares if you did it on exploration).
Yes, there is a definite visibility difference between difficulty and, say, whether or not you started with a Transmo Chest (for those masochists out there), but the option should be there and listed on the char sheet.

[Doctornull]

Serious question: Why would you want to spite people with a different play style? What's in it for you?

Imagine there's a button that you can hit for free and get +100 to your character level. I'd never use it as well because that would just waste the joy of levelling my character. Your strategic, tactical, lore, game mechanics skills instantly become irrelevant since you can hit 1 button and then roflbump high peak. But will the game be fun to you with this function?

Your strawman button sounds like a very poor analogy, and like a bad game mechanic. So yeah, congrats, you have shown that you can take something irrelevant, and look, it's both no fun and irrelevant.

For me the option to respec your character is about as bad as that: you can build any crap you like and then just respec it. It would also allow abuses to play earlygame with builds that are viable in the beginning but suck in the end, yeah for me it's an abuse.

For me, I can get through the first few dungeons on Nightmare with zero points allocated. None at all. Bump attacks and gear with no skills behind them. I can't do it with even a 50% success rate, but if I wanted a weirdo build which required that I not spend points, guess what? With enough time and luck, I can do it. But getting a no-points character through every early dungeon is a boring, grindy way to play.

So while I'm not going to use this function, it will lower my overall level of satisfaction when I build my character properly, because there's no such thing as a "proper build" when you can respect any time.

Like I said, you're the type to pre-plan your build. You might use spreadsheets, you might have played so much that the spreadsheet is in your head. That's just your playstyle. It's no better -- and no worse -- than anyone else's playstyle. Pre-planning doesn't make you more "hardcore" than someone who organically grows his character. The fact that you're 100% pure top-down view doesn't make you better than someone playing for immersion.

Did nobody like my suggestion of starting players at level 10, so that they would have access to whatever they wanted to shunt the points into, or was it just not considered?

That sounds like the idea someone else had about breaking the game into stages, and allowing the player to start at any stage. Which is a fine idea IMHO.

What if Darkgod's idea was combined with a guaranteed artifact that let you respec fullly once per game?

Way better than the current situation, that's for sure.

Also once the limited-use full re-spec mechanic is in, and the unlimited-use 4/3 re-spec is gone, then my ideal could probably be created via an addon, so that's probably quite close to perfect.

I'll throw my support behind edge2054's proposal.

[Davion Fuxa]

I can't say I think much of the respec artefact idea. It sort of makes the game kind of similar to DCSS where finding good loot early can just make you breeze through the game.

I think OrangeFlame's idea is interesting though. Being able to set your game so it specifically allows for respecs seems like a good compromise to allowing some freedom to explore what a character has to offer while still allowing players to achieve something if they rather have the challenge of not being able to respec. Some ideas:

• -Modify Exploration Mode so that a player has the ability to respec his character however he wants - this mode is about exploration, and it isn't limited to exploring the wonders of the campaign.
  -Introduce a new difficulty setting called 'Traveller Mode', that features the Adventure Mode settings with respec abilities (maybe full, partial, costing gold, whatever). This setting attempts to blend the ability to work ones character as they wish and potentially die a few times - but too many and the journey ends.
  -Modify Adventurer Mode so that a player can no longer respec points in any fashion. You need to invest wisely here and less optimal choices for your character will result in your potential demise. You can still die a few times, but their is a limited number of deaths your character can sustain.
  -Modify Roguelike Mode as well so that a player can no longer respec points in any fashion. Unwise decisions will kill you, and abruptly end your game. Sometimes life is unforgiving and unfair, and you have to take what you can get.

[Suslik]

As long as there are hardcore vanilla game modes that disallow respeccing like "no respec on nm+" I'm personally fine with anything including "free for all respecs at any point of the game". Though remember my word: it will harm replayability for majority of players, not just me.

People love diablo 2 and path of exile for strategic build planning and starting over the same class/race just to try another build.

[Doctornull]

I think OrangeFlame's idea is interesting though. Being able to set your game so it specifically allows for respecs seems like a good compromise to allowing some freedom to explore what a character has to offer while still allowing players to achieve something if they rather have the challenge of not being able to respec. Some ideas:

Note that I like Roguelike + full re-spec, but no re-spec during combat.

So I'd prefer if it were just a separate option, available in whatever permadeath mode you wanted -- exactly like how overall difficulty is separate from permadeath mode.

[edge2054]

I can't say I think much of the respec artefact idea. It sort of makes the game kind of similar to DCSS where finding good loot early can just make you breeze through the game.

I'm suggesting an artifact that shows up as a quest reward halfway through the game that lets you respec once. I don't see how that's at all similar.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'm suggesting an artifact that shows up as a quest reward halfway through the game that lets you respec once. I don't see how that's at all similar.

Apologies for misunderstanding then, especially since this is more or less a continuation of the initial idea I had regarding a popup quest/an NPC like the Elder, Aeryn, or Fillarel rewarding you a respec - this could be the reward you get.

Note that I like Roguelike + full re-spec, but no re-spec during combat.

So I'd prefer if it were just a separate option, available in whatever permadeath mode you wanted -- exactly like how overall difficulty is separate from permadeath mode.

Kind of similar to what Crim, The Red Thunder was thinking in the 'Challenge Modes - Ideas and Feedback' - though perhaps in this case it could be less of a negative Challenge Modifier and more of a positive one; personally I would prefer if No Respecs was the default option here.

[Doctornull]

So here's my current thinking... it's possible to block the Levelup screen when resting would be unavailable.

Doing that would solve the in-combat juggling, and allow whatever respec the player wants without allowing in-combat respec ever.

Arena has phases when resting is possible, so this doesn't kill Arena campaign, or any other campaign that I can see.

Are there any downsides to this?

[Davion Fuxa]

Seems like a minor improvement to the current situation - at least in the short term.

[Ragnarok]

First off fix certain classes that have mandatory point juggling (Arcane blades for example feel really unorganic and annoying to play with the choices I have, you have early skills that I just spam because really I have nothing else to use or point juggle to put into other skills later)

Then after that I recommend making it that you can only respec points down to level 1 talents so you cannot "forget" the ability.

[jotwebe]

My main beef is that I want to see tactical point juggling gone.

Full respecs I don't really like because of reasons mentioned already - they reduce the incentive to replay and break immersion/attachment to a character.

OTOH partial respecs do have something going for them over a strict no-respec policy.

But I don't like darkgod's proposed solution much (still better than the status quo though), for the followig reasons:

* Respecs should be available throughout the game relatively evenly, a flat gold cost would be prohibitively expensive early on and negligible in the late game.
* Forcing you to go to town is unnecessary make-work and load times.

My suggestion would be that you get 5-10 respec points per level, and taking out a talent point costs one respec point. No need to limit combat situations, because if you do respec tactically, it'll come out of your strategic budget, and you also can't do it all that much over the entire game, so it's not going to become a chore.

[Suslik]

like the path-of-exile-like idea of limited respec points that come with levels/certain artifacts

[Doctornull]

My suggestion would be that you get 5-10 respec points per level, and taking out a talent point costs one respec point. No need to limit combat situations, because if you do respec tactically, it'll come out of your strategic budget, and you also can't do it all that much over the entire game, so it's not going to become a chore.

That seems like a fine idea to me, mainly because it would mean you get a full re-spec if you really want it (i.e. if you find that perfect gear which invalidates your talent choices for the past 10 levels), but you can't do it often nor can you do it every turn of every combat.