Mages a bit to hard to unlock?

[Taxorgian]

You can use ammo creation a lot; there's a 20% chance of getting some ammo IIRC with one use. It should never run out on you if you use AC as often as you can. (You'll eventually have to drop them for having so many; it creates between 100 and 200 arrows each time).

[FACM]

Maybe not everyone's aware, but mages are pretty rare in canon for Middle-Earth. That's probably the main reason they need unlocked.

[Baker]

It's not like ToME ever cared a whole lot for canon as it is, so I can see how that wouldn't be a lot of an argument for some people. It's really one of these things where I think gameplay should come before lore, since spellcasters are one of the Big Three base playstyles (the others being melee and ranged). There will be enough other classes to unlock eventually, so I don't think it'll be much of a loss if Mages become available from the start.

Anyway, if you want to avoid having to manually unlock everything, there is a file in the T4Engine directory that can be edited with a simple text editor to unlock all the classes. I don't have access to mine at the moment, but I'll look it up once I do and edit this post for more

[Antagonist]

Well, my 2 cents is that mages are abit too popular to have them unlockable with such a hard prerequisite.

Its however not a mage, its an archmage.

Sure, you get shadowblades and such who are hybrid type classes, but not quite the same.

What about a mage or 'scholar' class open from the start? Kinda a less magic powered but still pure caster type. Possibly using more scrolls and incantations etc, but with more general survival or combat skills. Its skill trees will also make it possible to unlock archmage trees and unlock mana regen, making it a proto-archmage of sorts. The reward then for unlocking archmage would be less skill point investments needed for a pure caster playstyle.

[atan59]

Well, if mages are so popular, that may actually be a good reason to have the class as unlockable, exactly the way it is now. The class is unlocked through a quest, not a random event, so really it should motivate the new player to actually play and solve the quest, and I think that having a serious motivation for a quest is in fact a good thing. So: people love mages => it's good to ask for some "work" to unlock mages. Plus it motivates new players to play the "basic fighter" types first, which is usually the best way to learn any new rpg or roguelike game anyway.

[Shadus]

Not so much atan59, I'm just annoyed and flustered now... so I've more or a less slowed to a few attempts a day, I'm playing a lot less. Being forced to play a class you loathe to get to play a class you like? meh. I'm spending more time playing T2 now again. I'll add I had considerably more fun trying to get my yeek lost soul sorcerer worshiper of mb to ascend without stair scumming, it sucks less.

[darkgod]

So you like unlocks but not for the class you like, what if somebdy likes summoners and says the same ?

Anyway a "mage like" character is planned to be available from the start, the Alchemist (not the cheezy T2 one ;> ).
An alchemist is kind of like a mage but never had real mage training (because nobody knows mage exist), so he dabbles with crystals and plants to make spell effects.
They will use gems, which they crush to make bombs that they can throw at monsters to make fireballs and so on, use herbs to make potions, ...

And yes I do intend to keep mages as unlocks because it makes sense in the story of the game.

[SerPounce]

I like the unlocking system, the one change I think I would like is to have the unlocking criteria be known upfront. For example, having quests given out in Bree, or even have greyed out options in the starting menu with mesages like "in order to play a skeleton a living character must die and have the good -or bad- fortune of being reanimated."

The current system seems more like "randomly granted" rather than "unlocked." You don't really get the same sense of accomplishment when you see an unexpected "you have unlocked the Wyrmic" message than you would if you had been working through the sandworm lair with the goal of unlocking the class.

I think I've unlocked everything at this point (three classes and two races), and the mage was definitely the most rewarding since I had to intentionally work for it.

[SerPounce]

Not so much atan59, I'm just annoyed and flustered now... so I've more or a less slowed to a few attempts a day, I'm playing a lot less. Being forced to play a class you loathe to get to play a class you like? meh. I'm spending more time playing T2 now again. I'll add I had considerably more fun trying to get my yeek lost soul sorcerer worshiper of mb to ascend without stair scumming, it sucks less.

If playing any character besides a mage is just completely painful to you try this:
1. Scum the Bree for staffs
2. When you find one use the beta 5/6 sale bug to get unlimited money (sell an item, but select "no" on the are you sure box)

Should probably take half an hour. Not the way I would want to spend half an hour given other really fun classes there are in ToME 4, but it sounds like you've made up your mind that only a class called "mage" is acceptable to you.

[Shadus]

So you like unlocks but not for the class you like, what if somebdy likes summoners and says the same ?

Anyway a "mage like" character is planned to be available from the start, the Alchemist (not the cheezy T2 one ;> ).
An alchemist is kind of like a mage but never had real mage training (because nobody knows mage exist), so he dabbles with crystals and plants to make spell effects.
They will use gems, which they crush to make bombs that they can throw at monsters to make fireballs and so on, use herbs to make potions, ...

And yes I do intend to keep mages as unlocks because it makes sense in the story of the game.

I just think one of each "type" should be available at the start... "meat shield", "sneaky", "magic", "divine". Rest fall into the categorizations somewhere or hybrids of two or just oddities. The alchemist thing pretty much solves my issue, I just dislike the current class base set... and it makes it not much fun to play. *shrug*

[marvalis]

So... if you re-install the game or play on another computer, you have to unlock everything again?

From a game-play point of view, unlocking is a big no-no for me.
Even from a game making perspective it does not make sense: Why put in the effort to code something if a reasonable amount of your player-base will never get to enjoy playing it?
I don't see any good reason why you want to force people to spend real life time just so they can play -insert whatever class here-. Whatever your personal preference is when it comes to unlocking you should not force other people to do the same.

However, it seems that the opinions of several people are different. Some people want to be able to unlock all classes themselves (for story reasons or game-play reasons) others want them to be available at start. That is does not have to be a problem. At the start of the first game, just give players the choice of having all classes unlocked or unlocking them themselves. This choice can be either explicit (by asking the question do you want to unlock yourself) or implicit, by having another way of unlocking the characters like described below.

If you want prevent 'new' players from picking 'hard' classes, just have a secret key combination at the character select screen to unlock them (for example, press CTRL+o). That way it is very easy for experienced players to unlock the classes, yet impossible for new players to know how to do it.

Just a few idea's, thanks.

[darkgod]

If you reinstall the game it does not wipe the unlocks/savefiles/... since they live in your home folder like any other application data.
If you switch computer well use the online profiles hat's one of their main goal. It will automatically transfer your unlocks & achievements.

As for the argument that most people wont see it, there are many unlocks that are gotten quite easily.

If you want prevent 'new' players from picking 'hard' classes, just have a secret key combination at the character select screen to unlock them (for example, press CTRL+o). That way it is very easy for experienced players to unlock the classes, yet impossible for new players to know how to do it.

But then it changes nothing for new players and experienced players are likely to have unlocked them anyway.

[Elliott]

I actually feel the other way. Unlocking classes and races makes them special and feel like you've accomplished something. Additionally, the unlocked classes/races, imo anyway, should be weaker than the starting classes to add challenge, and if you can't get far enough to unlock, say, Pyromancers with Archers (or whatever) then you probably don't have the game mechanics down well enough to survive as a Pyromancer anyway.

Making the unlocked classes stronger than the start classes is giving a bonus to the people who need it the least. New shiny toys to play with is good, but an increase in raw power is bad. The best players should get the option to access new and greater challenges (though I recognize the difficulty level affects this substantially) rather than more power. I'm not saying this is the case now (Wyrmics are the only unlocked class I've played past about level 5, so I honestly don't know), I just think its worth point out as a philosophical point.

Additionally, and I'm probably in the minority on this, I think unlocking races and classes should only unlock them for a limited period of time (a month or two, perhaps). Getting access to Sun Paladins was really cool and felt like I had accomplished something. However in 6 months, I'm pretty sure I'll be thinking "Eh, Sun Paladins? Weren't they a starting class? I don't really remember how you get access to them now..." which would be a shame. But having the unlocks expire might keep it interesting, and on a decently long time duration (two months, maybe? 10 characters of that class? Rather than getting blanket access to the class, you get access to a cadre of trainees of that class (the 10 characters) and when they're gone, you have to go unlock it again to get more) it won't feel like a treadmill.

[Elliott]

As a side note, I play on two computers and all of my unlocks have been shared fairly quickly between them... except Sun Paladins and Anorithils. Its been a few days now and no sign of access being shared. Kind of weird.

[darkgod]

I checked your profile they are indeed correctly registered are you sure your second computer is correctly logged on the profile ?