The Perpetual Motion Adventurer Build: Invincible from Lv 12

[helminthauge]

An idea to achieve perpetual motion is to generate enough "energy" (which means time to act in ToME4) every motion for the next, and there is exactly a talent doing this. Weapon Folding, at level 5.0, make you have 30% chance to gain 10% of a turn when your weapon hits, and this is not a turn proc. The similar effect from item_temporal_energize proc is a turn proc, and won't work. (I'll write another post about what turn proc is, plus how exactly time works in ToME4.) This talent gives us 3% of a turn on average on each weapon hit, so if we can hit 34 times or more in a game turn (the turn used to count CD and effect duration), we'll be able achieve "perpetual motion" and save up additional energies which we can use to kill anything without any chance of being hit back.
Now we have 2 problems to solve: 1) how to hit 34 times or more in a game turn; 2) how to find the enemies who won't die under infinite hits and harmless enough.

How to hit 34 times or more in a game turn?
There're 3 ways to increase our hit number: 1) hit more enemies with every attack; 2) make our hits proc hits; 3) increase our attack speed (which is weapon speed * physical speed. Global speed doesn't help here).

To hit as many enemies as possible in one attack, I have the following idea. First, make our character surrounded by 8 enemies. Second, get a 2H weapon as well as the tentacle (and this fixes the race to Ogre). Finally, use Fearless Cleave! This will cause 32 hits totally, and Fearless Cleave has no CD. We need at least lv 12 to ogre-wield.
However, Fearless Cleave does cost stamina, so we have to find a way to negate this cost. A simple way is to use the prodigy Hidden Resource, but that would require us to be at least lv 25. An earlier solution is to use Adrenaline Surge. To my surprise that this talent can't actually kill you. You can reach negative infinity hp without dying if the only damage comes from overusing stamina. The minumum level for Adrenaline Surge is also lv 12. Before Editing "An earlier solution is Unstoppable + Adrenaline Surge. We need to be lv 22 to have Unstoppable, and that's when this build is completed. (No, we can't use Highborn's Bloom because we have to be Ogre.)"
You may point out that Adrenaline Surge doesn't last long. Actually we don't need a long duration at all because once we start the perpetual motion, the game turn won't pass at all and duration will freeze. The same thing goes for CD and that's why we choose Fearless Cleave.
Interesting things happen when the 2H weapon we're using is a 2H saw because of how they interact with tentacle (see my other post viewtopic.php?f=61&t=51088). We'll get 96 hits with the infamous Razorlock or 64 hits with other 2H saws. However saws also cost steam and though there is a way to replenish our steam with weapon hits, we cannot achieve this by lv 12.
Another interesting option is the 2H whip Hydra's Bite. It also attacks adjacent enemies like the tentacle, but the actual process is much more complex. I get about 90 hits (yeah, this is not fixed) each Fearless Cleave. It even has a 125% base attack speed! This is a very rare drop though and we most likely cannot get it by lv 12.

There aren't many ways to make our hits proc hits which don't involve turn procs. The only talents I know are Flexible Combat and Cleave. Flexible Combat requires us to be at least lv 25 so later. Cleave has no effect when we use Fearless Cleave as our base attack.
Plus, Greater Weapon Focus partly work but I personally consider this as a bug. Greater Weapon Focus says "you can gain no more than one extra blow with each weapon during a turn" and it is indeed a turn proc, but you can actually gain more than one extra blow with "some non-weapon thing", such as Flexible Combat, Tempest of Metal, or tentacle (probably more included). I'm not using this and we don't need it anyway.

2H weapons with a base attack speed faster than using 100% of a turn aren't very common. The ones I know are Colaryem (and you need high strength to achieve this) and that Hydra's Bite. You're welcome to tell me more options.
There're plenty of talents offering physical speed and since 34 is only a little bigger than 32, almost any number would work. The best option is Rampage from Rampage tree. Rampage gives up to 50% physical speed at level 5.0. It not only gives pretty high bonus but is also a tier 1 class talent so we can get it high by level 12. Don't worry about using talent will reduce it duration, for this along cannot reduce it duration lower than 1.

How to find the enemies who won't die under infinite hits and harmless enough?
OK, this is the real problem, but I've finally found a way to achieve this even on Madness. To make our character surrounded by 8 harmless enemies is easy —— just leave a honey tree alive and have some basic defenses, but the bees and bears will die fast unless we have a way to make our character deal absolutely no damage when still hitting. After some digging into the codes, I've found 2 ways.
The easier way is to accumulate 100% invisible_damage_penalty. We just need to sustain the talent Invisibility and then activate an Ethereal rune. The minumum level for Invisibility is also lv 12! Pity that Phantasm tree is going to be reworked in 1.7, so soon this approach won't work any more. But maybe 1.7 is going to introduce another invisibility damage penalty.
The second way is to accumulate 100% numbed_damage penalty. Known easy ways to get numbed_damage_penalties include: sustaining Mediation (50%), being off-balanced (15%), self-attacking when sustaining Numbing Poison (20% at level 5.0) and self-attacking with item_darkness_numbing proc ([1–35cSS:Mindpower + 5]%). This would require Call of the Wild and Poisons tree. To get the final 15% item_darkness_numbing effect, we need a certain drop and at least 25 mindpower, which is certainly achievable by level 12. To gather these penalties, we first equip the item offering item_darkness_numbing proc, and if the item isn't a weapon itself, a 2H weapon with as low damage as possible (because we're going to self attack). Then we sustain Call of the Wild, Apply Poison and Numbing Poison and start attack our character. Once our character get both Deadly Poisoned and Numbing Darkness debuff, we equip a 2H weapon if necessary, use Stunning Blow trying to get our character off-balanced. This may require some time and that's why we need the enemies surrounding us to be harmless enough.

With all these talents (maybe plus some equips) in hand, we move to the honey tree after a good rest, let our character surrounded, get 100% damage penalty, activate Adrenaline Surge and then Rampage, and after all these just use Fearless Cleave constantly. Assuming that we hit 32 times with every Fearless Cleave, use a weapon with 100% base speed, have 37% physical speed bonus (at Rampage level 3.0 for we aren't having enough class points at lv 12), and don't use Greater Weapon Focus, every Fearless Cleave costs 73% of a game turn and generates 96% of a game turn on average. This is perpetual motion, and after a while we'll accumulate thousands of turns. Now we can just deactivate Invisibility/Mediation and get rid of Ethereal and some debuffs, go out and kill things before these turns run out. When they run out, we come back to the honey tree and repeat

Note that the game itself doesn't tell us how many turns we accumulated. So we need to calculate the expectation of turns gained with each Fearless Cleave and count how many Fearless Cleaves we've used (calculable from hp loss). After finishing accumulating turns, we need to calculate how much time EVERY act uses, and once we have used up 80% of the expectation of the turns accumulated, we should retreat to a safe place, do nothing until the turns run out, rest and go to accumulate turns again.

Well, even if we can kill the enemies freely without them ever able to act, we're still not truely invicible now. After constantly using Fearless Cleave we'll die under however minimum damage, and there're quite a lot of enemies having damage when hit. The easiest solution for this is to use a Psionic Shield torque. In case that such thing doesn't drop, we can just use one or two Shield rune. This is not that convenient and we may need to rest a lot just because we run out of shield while still having a lot of turns remained. I don't think using another category point to access a talent blocking small damages is worth it because after just 10 levels, we can have Unstoppable blocking ANY damage.

The complete build sheet
An Ogre Adventurer at lv 12 has 8 category points, 18 class points and 15 generic points at disposal (counting the arena bonus and nothing else).Essential talents are shown below.

level 12.jpg (178.79 KiB) Viewed 11320 times

We have 1 category point, no class point and 4 generic points left after these. For the remaining points, I recommend 1 point in Heavy Armor Training to expand gear choice, 1 point in Weapon Mastery to increase the probability to off-balance our character, unlocking Finer Energy Manipulations and 1 point in Realign and the last point in Combat Accuracy. I choose to spend the category point in Finer Energy Manipulations because with only 1 generic point we get a heal with the cleanse of 1 physical effect, plus Beyond the Flesh! This will help our early survival greatly, and with Beyond the Flesh we can equip one more weapon! And there's an ego on weapon giving 10% physical speed.
We have 3 inscription slots. One should be a physical Wild infusion (or physical + mental if you can get it) to remove the Deadly Poison/Stunned and Off-balance effect. Realign can clear the other one. The rest two should be Shield runes.

Note 1: if you're playing 1.6.7 and using invisibility to negate your damage, just replace the Poisons and Call of the Wild trees with Phantasm 1/1/1/1. You'll have 1 more category point, 3 more class points and 1 more generic points at free disposal. Replace the Wild infusion with the Ethereal rune.
Note 2: if you can get a higher mindpower, you can put less points into Vile Poisons. Level 4.0 requires a minimal mindpower of 29, level 3.0 minimal 34, level 2.0 minimal 39, level 4.0 minimal 49.

[helminthauge]

Survival to lv 12
Since 1.6, we will meet no rare enemies before lv4 and randboss/uniques before lv 8. This also applies to Madness, so take benefit of it! An obvious way is to enter the Maze, Old Forest, Daikara and Ruined Halfling Ruins at lv 3 to force all enemies generated to be normal ones, and come back later just after reaching lv8. They should provide enough experience to lv 12.
We should start with a bow or sling because melee really sucks early. Our main damage comes from Weapon Folding and poisons, plus the proc damage of our ammunition.
Also note that we can unlearn up to 4 class points and 3 generic points, so we can adjust our talents a bit. Your talents at lv 11 should be something like below. 2 points in Apply Poison, 1 point in Vile Poisons, 1 point in Rampage, 1 point in Nature's Touch and 2 points in Realign are floating.

level 11.jpg (163.09 KiB) Viewed 11317 times

Improve the game quality after Lv 12
First we have 2 problems remained before able to win the game.

1) We're still not truly invincible.
Enemies can still hurt us with damages when hit. Psionic Shield torques and Shield runes cannot solve this problem permenantly because the damage can get really high in late game and a few enemies may even counterattack when hit. A permenant solve is Unstoppable, so we unlock Blood Thirst tree at lv 20 and get Unstoppable at lv 22. Flash of the Blade from Crusader tree also works but requires 3 more class points and character levels since it only works from level 4.0, and the former talents aren't as good as the ones in Blood Thirst tree. (But note that you may want Absorption Strike if you're using numbed_damage_penalty and planning to get in the Infinite Dungeon.)

2) It is too inconvenient to accumulate 100% numbed_damage_penalty!
Yeah, we need to self attack multiple times to trigger 2 effects triggering at a chance lower than 50%, and then try to off-balance our character. If this fails, we may need to start again because that 2 effects don't last long. Even if you're using invisibility, that honey tree may get a bit far to reach after you get to Far East. The solution is to use the training dummies in the Shertul Fortress. By setting their resistance to 100% and removing all equips providing damage penetration, we won't be able to damage them. We can't let 8 surrounding our character but 7 is enough after we max Rampage. With an ordinary 2H weapon and tentacle, we hit 26 times when surrounded by 7. 26 * 0.03 - 1 / (1 + 50%) = 0.11, not that efficiency, but we have ways to improve this.

The first prodigy should definitely go to Flexible Combat. It increases our hit number by at least 50% and greatly imporve our efficiency to generate turns. It also reduces the turn needed to kill the real enemies. Note that the proc talents of the handgear don't matter for this build since they're all turn procs.

Put points into unlocked trees
Max Rampage and Combat Accuracy ASAP.
Form and Function is also worth maxing if you have it because it gives accuracy (28 per weapon at level 5.0 and 100 mindpower) and decreases fatigue. We don't really need armor now and though it's supposed to also increase weapon damage, it actually doesn't because of a bug.
You can max Mutated Hand and Weapon Mastery (or Staff Mastery) if you care about weapon damage, and put points into Weapon Manifold to get another small proc and 30% physical and temporal resistance reduction. Weapon Manifold has a CD but it can reduce the CD by triggering itself on CD. You can also increase the level of Brutality to get physical damage bonus, Mortal Terror to increase physical critical chance, or Righteous Strength to get both.
I don't know a way to stably trigger the lightning effect of Elemental Harmony so no points into Harmony tree.
Adrenaline Surge and Blood Butcher offers a little more physical power with more points but I don't think they're worthy.
No other talents are worth any points because they either offer defenses or debuffs which we don't need, apply DoTs which will never work when the game turn doesn't pass at all, shorten the CD or increase the duration, or does an instant effect with a CD.

To Lv 50
Now at lv 36, when you have the third category point, you should ask yourself one question: whether you want to get in the Infinite Dungeon? There're neither honey trees nor training dummies in the Infinite Dungeon, and however many turns we have saved before entering it will run out eventually, so we'll have to create the creatures we can use Fearless Cleave on to stack energies. The cheapest way is the Create Minions talent. By using it twice we'll have 8 minions surrounding us. Note that they're friendly creatures and tentacle only attack adjacent enemies, so we'll get lower hit numbers. But with Flexible Combat, we still get 28 hits on average with an ordinary 2H weapon and tentacle, enough. Necromancers are going to be reworked in 1.7 but I think they still have the category able to offer 8 minions.

We should use the last one or two category and the last prodigy to increase our damage output. Even if the enemies will never hit back, I won't be pleased if it takes dozens of turns to kill anything. If you aren't planning the Infinite Dungeon, you can just focus on the weapon damage. This will take the Arcane Might prodigy and for the 2 categories points, I have no great idea so choose them yourself.
I haven't really delved in the Infinite Dungeon on Madness, but I have a sense that eventually enemies' armour will outnumber player's weapon damage so I think it's better to focus on proc damage. I know 3 trees providing great proc damages (all numbers below are assuming that you have 5.0 talent level and 100 spellpower, without any damage bonus).
1) Technique / Magical combat
Arcane Destruction creates a 2-radius ball of 120 arcane damage on melee crit. Since it's a ball we can actually self-attack to damage the enemies nearby. This offers an effective way to damage those with a high defense and evasion/repel chance. The damage itself isn't very high, but if we can afford another category point ——
Arcane Combat offers a 70% chance to proc a spell with 100 cunning (we won't use shields and tentacle doesn't count as dual-wield). Among the 3 choices we can only use Lightning because Flame only applies a DoT while Earthern Missiles will freeze in the air. Lightning deals an average 295 lightning damage, which can spellcrit. Note that Lightning costs 10 mana so we'll either need to stack 10 mana on spell crit on equips or select Hidden Resource as the second prodigy.
2) Corruption / Demonic pact
After some effort to get a high-level Wretch Titan mainhand seed, you can get Corrosive Cone doing 196 acid damage (or 230 by equipping 2 seeds to get the talent level to 7.0, and a third seed doesn't help) in a cone on melee crit, which can spell crit. This also melt walls but since we're invincible this only makes our exploration easier. Wretch Titan mainhand seed is the only seed we care about, so get Demon Seed to level 5.0 and don't put points into Bind Demon. After we get one or two seed we can even unlearn 4 points from Demon Seed
3) Steamtech / Physics
Among all the weapon tinker offering a proc, Lightning Coil is the only one that is neither a turn proc nor a DoT. A tier 5 Lightning Coil deals 107 lightning damage at 100 steampower (we usually won't have such a high steampower) which can steam crit on weapon crit. Note that this proc is only applied to the weapon with this tinker. Lightning Coil requires Electricity level 3.0 to be created, so you can unlock Physics tree manually to access it, but it's still better to unlock this tree with a tinker escort to also get Chemistry. Another note is that you'll also be able to create Iron Grip on the road of accessing this, which makes you immune to disarm.
There is also a weapon ego offering a proc that can spell crit. Arcing ego gives the weapon 25% chance for lightning to strike from the target to a second target dealing 150 lightning damage at 100 spellpower on hit. This number isn't that high and we're probably using short staves so don't pursue this. Though like Arcane Destruction we can self-attack to damage the enemies nearby with this so maybe keep one or two.
If you have Arcane Combat and Lightning, use a short staff with the tentacle to avoid dualwielding penalty;
Else if you have Lightning Coil tinkers, use a short staff and another weapon (best to be Telos's Bottom Half or a dagger with arcing ego), both with Lightning Coil attached, and if you also have demon seeds, put the wretch titan seed on your telekinetic weapon;
Else if you only have demon seeds, use a short staff with the tentacle, or if you also have Telos's Bottom Half AND have really high accuracy against the enemy's defense, equip it in your offhand.
Telekinetic weapon won't attack when the game turn freezes so equip whatever weapon with the best passive bonus.

If you haven't decide your second prodigy yet, there are 2 great options that may surprise you.
The first is Trick of the Trade. It unlocks Stealth and Scoundrel tree. Scoundrel has no help to this build, while in the Stealth tree, Shadowstrike makes all our spell, mind and steam attack auto-crit when in stealth, which is supergood, and provides a rather-big critical multiplier, and Shadow Dance make our character always in stealth. Unlocking Stealth tree does the same thing but we're more short on category points. Note that with this prodigy, we will DO DAMAGE when sustaining Invisibility and using Ethereal rune.
The second is Steamroller. We can get Rush from demon seeds. After killing 5 enemies, this prodigy gives us 100% all damage bonus.
After these consider Draconic Will if you don't have Iron Crip. Some enemies can disarm us when we hit them. We actually have no other means to deal with detrimental effects because CD will freeze when the game turn doesn't pass.
No other prodigy greatly improves this build. Pain Enhancement System and Adept improve everything a bit. Ethereal Form gives 25% all damage penetration. Worldly Knowledge (unlocking Stone Alchemy) and then Crafty Hands gives a total 30% all damage bonus and 15% all critical chances. Arcane Amplification Devices creates an invulnerable but otherwise very weak enemy, which may be useful in the Infinite Dungeon. That's about prodigies.

Escorts: Nothing exciting here except unlocking tinker.
Alchemist's Reward: +2 class points, +2 generic points > +3 dexterity and cunning > +4 stat points > + 3 magic and willpower

Into the Infinite Dungeon
2 things to note when you're still on Eyal is:
1) Don't waste your class and generic points for some small improvements! We get very few class and generic points after lv 50, and we have the chance to get additional category points in the Infinite Dungeon. We're also able to put more than 5 points into a single talent.
2) Save all equips giving darkness damage bonus and penetration, for later we can have a way to make all our damage darkness. They're also pretty common on equips.

Now we need to negate our damage again, and luckily we should have higher chance to trigger poisons and numbing darkness now. And once we get more category points, we can use them to make accumulating numbed_damage_penalty far more stable. With Projection from Mentalism tree, we can get our character numbed with Poison Storm or Absorption Strike. Poison Storm gives 35% numbed_damage_penalty at lv 4.0, and 50% at lv 8.0. Absorption Strike gives 20% at lv 5.0. Plus our projection cannot do real damage so no worry to kill our character.

We probably also want to increase our efficiency of time generation a bit. We should have at least found 20% physical speed on equips after beating the main campaign. 28 * 0.03 - 1 / 1.7 = 0.25, enough but not that great. If you have found Hydra's Bite, use it. If you have found a 2H saws, time to unlock Automated Butchery tree and use the saw. You'll need 2 points into Mow Down assuming you have 100% physical critical chance. If you have found none, the only option is to further increase the physical speed. There're quite a lot of talents offerring physical speed bonus. I'll just list the top 3.
1) Time Dilation from Speed Control tree. It gives 45% physical, spell and mind speed at level 5.0 after using Spacetime Tuning 3 times, and this tree also offers Time Stop in which you can use Spacetime Tuning.
2) Relentless Fury from Berserker's Strength tree gives 30% physical and movement speed at level 5.0. Plus Berserker Rage from the same tree gives 50% physical critical chance when we have no life left (and we should) from level 1.0
3) Blade Flurry from Lethality tree. gives 30% physical speed at level 5.0. Pity that the additional attack is a turn proc.
Or you can use Greater Weapon Focus if you're ok with the bug.

It's also a good idea to get both Corrosive Cone and Arcane Combat now. (Don't bother with Lightning Coil now if you still don't have it. It doesn't apply to your tentacle and unarmed strike, and we won't replace tentacle with an actual weapon because Arcane Combat is too good. Plus its damage increases with steampower, which we don't have methods to get high. Thus, even though it can crit, the damage of Weapon Folding is going to overnumber its soon.) Then get Blood Pact from Doom Covenant tree. It unifies all our damage to darkness. Afterwards, unlock Stealth tree if you haven't got it through prodigy and don't have 100% spell critical chance. After these, just look for the talents increasing darkness damage, critical multiplier, spellpower and accuracy. Honorable additional mentioning of categories offering a lot of these (all numbers below are at talent level 5.0):
Technique / Berserker's strength: aside from the physical and movement speed and physical critical chance mentioned before, Berserker Rage offers 40 accuracy at 100 dexterity.
Technique / Combat techniques: Precise Strike offers 37 accuracy at 100 dexterity at a cost of 10% physical speed. Perfect Strike offers a 100 accuracy and also negate the evasion bonus from unseen! And we have Rush here.
Technique / Magical combat: This category provides a great proc damage, and Arcane Cunning offers a spellpower equal to 40% of your cunning.
Cunning / Shadow magic: Shadow Cunning offers a spellpower equal to 40% of your cunning. Besides, Shadow Magic offers a rather high proc damage (93 at 100 spellpower, while Weapon Folding is 84) and Shadow Feed offer 11% physical and spell speed.
Cunning / Ambush: Umbral Agility offers 58 accuracy at 100 spellpower. Plus Shadowguard makes you immune to detrimental effects if you also have Stealth tree.
Celestial / Radiance: Illumination lowers enemies' defense by 45 at 100 spellpower and also negate the evasion bonus from unseen!
Corruption / Blight: Dark Ritual offers 58% critical multiplier at 100 spellpower. This tree is also where Poison Storm lies.
Cursed / Predator: Predator offers 60 accuracy after you've killed 100 creatures of the same type.
Psi / Psi-fighting: Augumentation increases your dexterity by 29% of your cunning, and one dexterity gives one accuracy. It also makes you able to use a telekinetic weapon, if you don't have it yet.
Demented / Path of horror: Horrific Evolution offers 35 accuracy and spellpower at 100 magic. Overgrowth offers 30% all damage bonus but using it will cause your movement difficult (You can use Fearless Cleave to move normally but it takes much more time. Also remember to use Rush with Steamroller!). Writhing One offers 14% darkness damage and may not be worthy.
Demented / Slow death: Painful Agony allows you to "steal" an active talent from enemies, at level 10.0! So you may actually not want to learn Perfect Strike yourself because by getting it at level 10.0 (and it is a quite common talent) from enemies you get 58 more accuracy.
Psi / Gestalt: By using Forced Gestalt, you gain 104 * (1 - 1 / 2 ^ n) all 4 powers for the n (n ≤ 5, so the max number is 100) enemies you beat mental save with mindpower in radius 5. Plus you'll be able to see creatures through wall in radius 18.
Cunning / Lethality: Expose Weakness offers 60 accuracy at 100 cunning. The next talent is the forementioned Blade Flurry.
Celestial / Hymns: Hymn of Detection offers 58% critical multiplier at 100 spellpower and Hymn of Incator offers 34% darkness damage at 100 spellpower.
Chronomancy / Fate Weaving: If you have Projection and Mind Link and can do at least 2 instances of mind damage per attack, you can use your projection to attack yourself third times, then Fate Weaver along with Webs of Fate (only needs 1.0 level) can offer you a total 48 accuracy and all 3 powers.
Psi / Augumented mobility: Quick as Thought offers 38 accuracy at 100 mindpower.
Corruption / Demonic strength: Demonic Blood offers 20 spellpower and 8% of your current vim as all damage bonus (26% at lv 50 without any vim sustains).
Steamtech / Physics and Steamtech / Chemistry: With Physics 1/1/1/0 and Chemistry 1/2/1/0, you can get Headlamp offering 25 accuracy and Black Light Emitter offering 25% darkness damage, plus Iron Grip offering 100% disarm immunity. 2 additional points into Electricity allow you to have Lightning Coil, and 2 into Smiths Crystal Plating, offering 10 all stats.
I may have miss some and you're welcome to tell me about them.

Talents to Avoid
Any talents in Eyal's fury and Antimagic tree. We need the evil magics
Ancestral Life from Fungus tree. With this whenever we get a heal, our saved turns will be reduced to 2 turns.
Terminus from Chronophage tree. Same reason as Ancestral Life, but at least it's not a passive effect.
Shadow Viel from Ambush tree. It will cause game crash because by activating it, you won't stop attacking until no enemies left or you run out of time, and neither would probably happen before combat log overflows lol

[Cathbald]

You can also use time stop and then your melee hits won't deal damage for the duration.

[helminthauge]

You can also use time stop and then your melee hits won't deal damage for the duration.

I have tried, but how the duration of Time Stop work is different (of course it is) and it will expire after just a few hits.
And even if it doesn't expire, you have no way to cancel it by yourself, so you always deal 0 damage during the "perpetual motion stage". The aim of this build is to make you able not only to act infinitely when the game turn freezes, but also to deal actual damage.