[1.5.x] Class/Race Tier List

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Mankeli · #76 Post by **Mankeli** » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:26 pm

Tier A has more classes than the following two tiers combined...time to deliver that promise given in chat some time ago?

Mex · #77 Post by **Mex** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:56 am

Updated again.

Tier A represents classes that are basically immortal, with Unstoppable/Sacrifice shield. They are not strong enough to complete Madness now due to Vitality or short durations on Unstoppable. Wyrmic is currently here due to ? ice wall and no other reason.

Tier B represents classes that are strong without abusing any particular mechanic. PM received some deserved balancing on the wall/matter weaving, which would have placed them in Tier A otherwise.

Tier C are lacking in one or more departments, whether that be defensively or offensively.

Tier D are classes that are worse versions of existing classes or simply are weak in comparison to others.

Ghouls and Skeletons moved to their own bottom tier. Not having movement, heroism, or mental/physical wild hurts them too much.

donkatsu · #78 Post by **donkatsu** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:20 pm

Mex wrote:Tier A represents classes that are basically immortal, with Unstoppable/Sacrifice shield. They are not strong enough to complete Madness now due to Vitality or short durations on Unstoppable.

What stops Healing Nexus from being a viable counter to Vitality?

Mex · #79 Post by **Mex** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:48 pm

On madness each turn of vitality can heal up to 16k towards the end of the game. Healing nexus doesn't cover it sufficiently.

EDIT: It matters a lot more for casters that can't really output as much damage as mercy melees. The issue these now have is short unstoppable duration.

donkatsu · #80 Post by **donkatsu** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:20 pm

I don't see how the amount matters, whether it's 16k or a billion. Healing Nexus prevents 100% of healing without exception, for its 8 turn duration. The timing is really tight, for sure; you'd have to cast Healing Nexus and trigger Vitality before the next tick, but with DoTs and/or slow moving projectiles it certainly seems within the realm of possibility.

edge2054 · #81 Post by **edge2054** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:43 pm

Dekar has an insidious poison artifact that reduces healing by 159%. Would probably help with vitality.

Mex · #82 Post by **Mex** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:57 pm

Sorry you're correct I thought Healing Nexus duration scaled off talent level, instead it takes raw talent level.

In that case I think Arcane Blade may have a decent chance at doing Madness, likewise for Necromancer.

The issue still persists that Unstoppable doesn't last long enough, so I believe Marauder/Berserker are still ruled out.

If someone does beat Madness with them again then I will adjust accordingly.

daed4 · #83 Post by **daed4** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:01 am

WAIT a second.
What the hell is doing wyrmic on tier A?!

malboro_urchin · #84 Post by **malboro_urchin** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:23 am

daed4 wrote:WAIT a second.
What the hell is doing wyrmic on tier A?!

Don't worry, it's a bug

Ice Wall eventually lasts longer than its cooldown.

It does make me sad that it takes a bug like this to make Wyrmic tier A, but I guess Madness isn't really meant to be balanced.

wampa_stompa__ · #85 Post by **wampa_stompa__** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:25 am

Actually, that's not a bug. It's intended.

daed4 · #86 Post by **daed4** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:56 am

How does that make you immortal?

donkatsu · #87 Post by **donkatsu** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:19 pm

Because at any point you can decide, "I don't want things to hit me anymore", and Ice Wall makes it happen. If you can stop taking damage whenever you want, the only two things that can kill you are one-shots, and effects that prevent you from using Ice Wall. Cauterize and Draconic Will take care of these, respectively.

daed4 · #88 Post by **daed4** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:14 pm

Yes, while that's awfully cute you do the same damage as a baby hitting you with a wet noodle.

SageAcrin · #89 Post by **SageAcrin** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:10 pm

wampa_stompa__ wrote:Actually, that's not a bug. It's intended.

Confirming this, seeing as I coded it.

Totally intended, give it a spin and see if you think it's overpowered.

It allows you to cut off single, powerful threats indefinitely, or to escape indefinitely using Burrow+Lightning Speed+Ice Wall, but I'm not fully convinced the impact is stronger than Stone Wall allowing you to cut off all threats for a long period of time with a single press.

If they start stomping Insane, we'll know it's too good. Until then, I think it's premature to fret about.

As people have pointed out before they noticed this, they have very, very little going for them on higher difficulties. Ice Wall specifically was tuned this highly for this reason in part.

grobblewobble · #90 Post by **grobblewobble** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:29 pm

SageAcrin wrote:If they start stomping Insane, we'll know it's too good.

It seems they already did start stomping insane..
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=43862

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