Saving CON! And undead while we're at it!

[grobblewobble]

(Gnaw is crap though, make it a passive that procs on melee hits.)

That's a really cool idea!

Also good point about Liches, they can use some revamping too.

[Delmuir]

About Liches…

I proposed adding more negative life to them when Blurred Mortality was active, based on their constitution investment. I've also suggested adding a racial tree among other suggestions.

Ultimately, I think they're a special case and here is my proposed solution:

When you transform into a Lich as a Necro or adventurer, you gain a bonus of 0.1 (or whatever is an appropriate amount) to ALL of your class categories AND gain access to the Celestial/light tree. If you already have it then you gain 0.2 additional - doesn't unlock it though.

You already get Celestial/Star Fury and odds are, you've either acquired or really want the Celestial/Light tree. Why not grant it? The class suffers from a shortage of generic categories anyway and it'd be thematic. More so, it would help make up for the lack of status-removal abilities as an undead.

It'd be just a general power-buff without really changing the dynamic of the class… all for 5 talent points and a loss of infusions.

[HousePet]

Poison and bleed immunity have one side use: They reduce the number of physical effects that could get in the way of curing something bad.

[Mankeli]

Poison and bleed immunity have one side use: They reduce the number of physical effects that could get in the way of curing something bad.

Also Bone Shield.

[0player]

Poison and bleed immunity have one side use: They reduce the number of physical effects that could get in the way of curing something bad.

Dunno about bleeds, the only dangerous thing is probably drems in the Bellow, but poisons can be very nasty. Also there's a pinning poison.

[supermini]

Ultimately, I think they're a special case and here is my proposed solution:

It doesn't really resolve the main reasons why liches are bad:

1) Vulnerability to silence. It is a complete shutdown for them without wild infusions to clear or movement infusions to fall back on.

2) Lack of heroism infusions. This is mostly related to how sacrifice shield works. If you're using it, it's an incentive to have a lower hp and more die_at. It counts shields as hp, but not die_at.

Even if sacrifice shield worked differently, necros don't have any synergy with shield runes, so heroism is better in any case.

3) Class points. Lichdom costs (at least) 5 class points, and those are very tight.

I would completely scrap it as a talent, letting you simply transform in the fortress with the 'level 6' bonus if you wish, when you complete the quest.

Unrelated to specifically lichdom, necros have too many bad talents and are due for a reorganization.

[Mankeli]

Supermini has some good points above^

A few additions: Regardless of what amount of class points lichform requires, be it zero or non-zero, lichform should be buffed. It is actively bad thing to do to your character so the point investment cost doesn't currently matter: you wouldn't want it even at zero point cost.

Also, I'd like to add to the "losing infusions" point that and endgame necro will most likely want zero runes. Unlike one would maybe think at first glance, necros won't want to even use manasurge after the early and maybe mid game because they consume soul and maybe hidden resources (or highborn's bloom) too if they go for the best prodigies available.

Edit. Maybe the lichform buff should be its own thread?

[HousePet]

Perhaps the difference in usefulness between runes and infusions is a problem?
If the difference wasn't as large, the compensation for the loss of infusions would be adequate.

[Radon26]

maybe give liches second racial tree? (second, assuming its not cornac)
lich form is supposed to be the final goal of necromancers, so why not make it reasonably attractive, and relevant?

some of the talents could be

disturbing presence
passive
if an enemy die in your aura, while you have full soul bar, it will have a xx% chance to be risen as an undead, based on your necrotic minion talent.

hungering dead.
passive
grants blood splash to all of your undead minions. (something to slow their demise as they run outside of your aura)

Evolving dead
sustain (first idea was passive, but that would require an additional "condition" to not be a liability)
Any undead under your control who kills an enemy, will consume its soul and rank up into a more powerful form.
while sustained, you will only get souls for from the enemies you kill yourself.
soooo as for ranking up, i mean, ofc a skeleton would stay a skeleton and ghoul would stay a goul, and ghost a ghost.
degenerate skeleton>skeleton warrior>armoured skeleton warrior
-------------------->archer>master archer
-------------------->skeleton mage> lich?
ghoul>ghast>ghoul king
vampire>master vampire
i do not know how to balance the additionall points into that talent... probably some chances.

as for giving them light tree cause its "thematic"... I think something corrupted would make more sense, but sure.

[supermini]

Edit. Maybe the lichform buff should be its own thread?

It should probably be a part of a necro rework. The class is clunky to say the least.

Perhaps the difference in usefulness between runes and infusions is a problem?
If the difference wasn't as large, the compensation for the loss of infusions would be adequate.

It's the source of many of the undead related problems, yeah. It's something to consider for 1.4.

[Atarlost]

The main problem with runes is that silence effects them. Nothing can bring runes up to par with infusions while this is true. If it weren't for silence the condition clearing runes would be viable. They have longer cooldowns and fixing that may also be needed to make them truly par, but it's the risk of silence that's the real killer.

[Effigy]

What if silence were changed to not affect instant-cast abilities, like the way confusion doesn't affect instant cast? Thematically it fits, since if it's instant there shouldn't be a verbal component to the skill.

[edge2054]

Just make runes not subject to silence. With ogres the president has been set twice now (shalore). "Innate" spells can't be silenced. Let's lump runes in with that.

Now back to the OP. Con!!

[grobblewobble]

It would help if stat requirements would check for unmodified stats. At the moment they take item bonuses (and temporary effects like heroism) into account. This makes it easy to gain Thick Skin 5 (very desirable) and any con-based prodigy without ever putting a point into con.

But if prodifies and talents would check their stat requirements against unmodified stats, people who want Thick Skin would actually need to invest in Con first. (And likewise for other stats.) In my opinion this would be an improvement in any case, because as it stands, the stat requirement of a prodigy is meaningless.

[supermini]

But if prodifies and talents would check their stat requirements against unmodified stats, people who want Thick Skin would actually need to invest in Con first. (And likewise for other stats.) In my opinion this would be an improvement in any case, because as it stands, the stat requirement of a prodigy is meaningless.

I'd rather do away with stat requirements than enforce them. At least this system gives you flexibility. You can decide what prodigy you want on level 30, you don't have to invest in a stat from level 1 in order to get it.