Skirmisher 2.0 Idea Thread - Lets Get to Work!

[Fortescue]

Lots of great feedback!

Thank you for writing all that up! I agree Buckler Training is not nearly as interesting as I had hoped it would be. I can also see why you'd want there to be more options for melee range attacks, and I agree this is a good idea to expand player build options. The core gameplay is all about hit and run attacks, but an optional tree dedicated to standing your ground a little bit longer wouldn't hurt anything.

[Fortescue]

Hmm, Inertial and Eye Shot from Archery-Slings both would be good fits, and I frankly rather dislike the redundancy of Sling Supremacy. Perhaps give Archery-Slings and replace Sling Supremacy with something else? Multishot and Bombardment are so similar that Bombardment might need to be dumped and replaced, though.

I am more in favor of splitting Archer into 2 new Bow using classes, and dropping the more dedicated Bow using half of this split into Rogue and giving them a new Stealth tree based on shooting unaware enemies, but also increasing your damage for spending turns lining up shots without being seen (risk / reward system for staying in range of enemy vision without attacking immediately). Current Archers are basically Rogues anyway.

I don't have the time to implement these designs currently, though they are high on my priority list after I finish fixing Berserker and Skirmisher.

[Plak]

Rough suggestion sketch for possible buckler rework and a melee status tree, what do you think? I might try coding some to see how well it really works.

Buckler Expertise (Passive)
Allows shields to be equipped, using Cunning instead of strength as a requirement.
You cunningly use your shield to deflect attacks rather than attempt to withstand their full impact. You permanently gain X% of your shield's Block value as Defense and Ranged Defense (currently Y), but your Block is only Z% as effective at blocking damage. The defense bonuses increase with your Cunning and the Block effectiveness increases with your Strength.

Attempt to make shields matter and fit the class' flavor better (Cunning shouldn't let a frail rogue use Strength-based shields like a Bulwark). Skirmishers don't need passive immunity from spell bolts when they can use called shot through meat shields. Rogues use Defense, a shielded Rogue should be even better at it. Admittedly, Defense is a weird stat, but a well-tuned and sufficiently large bonus might make it work.


Buckler Mastery (Passive)
While equipped with a shield, every time you successfully evade a blow the attacker will be vulnerable to a counterstrike. Your Block talent will now also grant you X% of your shield's Block value as bonus Defense and Ranged Defense. Your fatigue is lowered by Y% while using a shield. At Talent level 5, your Bash and Smash Shield hit is a guaranteed critical (to take advantage of on crit effects with heavy investment, as Skirmisher only has one shield attack).

* Nerf Bash and Smash damage to the ground, but make the shot daze. This skill should be about getting mobs out of your face, not straight out of this world.

* Remove Counter Shot. Boring passive damage, drains precious ammo at a rate the player does not control.

Light Block (Active)
You shift your weight and enter a special blocking stance, making no attempt to dodge the next enemy attack but allowing the impact to knock you back 1 tile per X damage blocked. At talent level 5, this will always trigger Counterstrike.


Skirmishers have lots of ways to get out of melee range, so rewarding getting close to a boss with powerful shutdown skills could make for an interesting addition as an optional, locked tree.

Technique (Cunning?) - Sling Combat (locked)
Melee tree, targets the same weak points as called shots using your loaded sling as a flail, for less damage but much stronger debuffs.

Sling Combat (Sustained)
You have learned to use your loaded sling as a makeshift flail. You may now do melee attacks with your sling for 50-80% weapon damage, quickly reloading your ammo by 1-2. At talent level 3, melee counterstrikes will daze for 3 turns.

Unsure about this. Might help with weak crowds, reloading for your Hurricane Shot while doing solid damage with counterstrikes.

I Suck At Naming (Active)
Melee switch place + kneecapper? Cannot be saved against, but can be dodged and checks Pinning immunity.

I Suck At Naming 2: Name Harder (Active)
You strike your target's throat with your loaded sling for X% melee damage, cutting their breath for Y turns. While out of breath, they may not cast spells and their fatigue is increased by Z%. This effect cannot be saved against, though it can be dodged and checks Silence immunity.

Concussing Blow (Active)
You use your loaded sling to deal a powerful melee blow to the target's head for X% melee damage, disabling 1-4 sustains and causing all talents to fail for 1-2 turns. This effect cannot be saved against, though it can be dodged and the talent failure checks Confusion immunity.

If Brawler's Axe Kick (and Combination Kick I suppose) can ignore saves, a frail ranged fighter taking the risk of getting in range should be able to as well. Skirmishers don't have enough ways to boost accuracy to make it reliable against bosses, which is the one thing you will want to use these skills against.

Speaking of which, Sling Sniper should either give Called Shots a large Accuracy bonus or, perhaps preferably, make them unable to miss. Without Precise Strikes and Perfect Strike, Skirmishers are brick walled by high defense rares.

[Fortescue]

Wow, great ideas! A few of these have been repeated often enough that I'm pretty comfortable considering adding them.

[Davion Fuxa]

I sort of think Light Block could work as a Sustain - just turn it on and everytime you actively Block you get shunted back a space. That would likely be a good way of adding mobility to the Block ability which seems to go with the Skirmisher Theme.

I'd potentially make it so that at like Talent Level 5/5 investment, your Buckler Expertise or Buckler Mastery deflect bonus will count as triggering a Counter Debuff on the enemy when you actively use the Block ability (With Sustain or not). I'd probably also make it so that each talent level invested slowly raises the amount of deflection bonus you retain (while still getting shunted from that deflection) with diminishing returns up to a certain point (maybe 50%) while the Sustain is on. I'd remove the automatic Counterattack debuff at Talent Level 5 though - just leave that on the deflection.

[Plak]

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand right what you mean by "deflect"? Is it dodging from defense or the flat damage reduction any class gets from Blocking? Most classes can only counterstrike from full blocks, Bulwarks and Sun Paladin can counterstrike from partial blocks, and my suggestion would have Skirmisher counterstrike from all dodges as long as a shield is equipped; Skirmishers are agile fighters who should be using their shields at all time to evade attacks rather than staying in place Blocking. The guaranteed counterstrike from Light Block mitigates the fact you're very unlikely to get a full block (and thus a counterstrike bonus) from damage reduction itself and is also the only way Skirmishers will regularly do ranged counterstrikes during actual gameplay, which I think would be pretty nice flavor-wise given their unlock requirement.

As for making Light Block a sustain, I think that would be way too good. Skirmishers are definitely viable on Insane (I died in the Slime Tunnels and I'm not a particularly good player), in good part because of how good they are at getting out of range already. Adding a comparatively subpar movement option to help with getting in and out of range for Sling Combat is fine, but not with a 2 turn cooldown. Furthermore, it does not synergize well with the rest of the shield tree and completely negates the main effect of Buckler Mastery in particular. Both of those are meant to synergize with Sling Combat (the daze on counterstrike would trigger on melee talents as well) and are part of the same tree, so they should work nicely together.

[Davion Fuxa]

Deflection is what Skirmishers are doing right now - everytime they succesfully have Buckler Expertise or Buckler Mastery Proc, they deflect the blow away from themselves and completely negate the attack. It's a fixed percentage of a chance that an attack will completely missed you - much like how Evasion works. In regards to the specific talents in question - Buckler Expertise causes your Skirmisher to deflect attacks in Melee. If you have Counter Shot then you get a free hit at a cost of ammo. Buckler Mastery is much like Buckler Expertise except it works on all projectiles.

Right now I think what is happening as well with the Buckler Training Talents is that Buckler Expertise and Buckler Mastery are going to be folded into just one talent. This does mean that there will be two open talent slots but personally I would rather another Active Shield talent be made for use instead of another passive Shield talent.

I'm also not entirely sure on the Buckler Mastery idea you proposed with Counterstrikes going off whenever you evade a hit as a note too. Personally I think Counterstrikes should only go off when you are actively using the Block Ability or attack and enemy that is Blocking and not passively. If it is made Passive then a Skirmisher Rares are going to be a serious threat to players because anytime you hit them their is a chance they are going to open up a Counterstrike on you; ie, taking a potential player death out of the hands of the player and putting into the RNG's hands.

The Light Block idea however sounds like a good talent - especially to replace the spot that removing Counter Shot would make. It makes active use of Block matter again, as a means to escape Melee.

As to my thinking for making it a Sustain:

If the Light Block succesfully procs and shunts you back a tile while you are Actively Blocking then it can be made to simply turn off the Sustain - even if the talent has a low cooldown (I would suggest a long one of at least 20-40 turns), using the Sustain could cost 1 turn to put it on, and then another turn to actively use the Block talent again; ie, the talent will come off as an emergency talent for getting out of the fight.

Once Light Block procs as well, it's used and you likely won't be using it again in the same fight unless you can find time to put back on the Sustain while enemies are closing in on you or something. Additionally, if it is a Sustain that prevents you from getting Counterattacks with your Active Block ability, then having it on has the penalty if you actually want that and a choice because you may potentially want to leave it on in case you want to get shunted.

At the same time, making it so that you get Counterstrikes when you deflect an attack from Active Block at Talent Level 5 while the Sustain is off will allow players to get a Counterstrike debuff if they do choose to actively Block. It also has the advantage that if a player sees a Skirmisher Rare using the Block ability, they know that if they attack they could get Counterattacked right back for a lot of damage. Once the Block goes away though, then they can actively pursue attacking without fear of that happening.

Finally, doing the above with making the talent fully revolve around the Block Ability means it can be given the potential to be a talent that you only invest one or two points into for those who would make use of the Block ability as an escape talent; or up to 5 points to improve the Block Ability so you can get Counterstrikes from when enemies evade attacks.

[Plak]

You're right, Counterstrikes on every evade would be very problematic for enemy NPCs. A counterstrike from a successful dodge while Blocking should be However, I do think it is very odd that a Rogue (who typically use Defense, and might get another Defense source from the revamped Mobility/Leather armor mastery) using a shield (another source of defense) would get a fixed, flat evasion rate rather than use the Defense mechanic. I understand that Defense is a bit borked and typically cannot compete with Accuracy, but a decent passive boost that scales mostly with shield values rather than talent level, plus a sizable boost from Block could make it work for players without making non-blocking Skirmisher NPCs immune to melee.

Using a shield and their Strength to block damage and get counterstrikes is Bulwark's thing. A rogue that equips shields using Cunning reqs should get counterstrikes from evading attacks with their Block, not from being hit and blocking very little damage due to their lack of strength.

How about this:
Buckler Expertise (Passive)
Allows shields to be equipped, using Cunning instead of strength as a requirement.
You cunningly use your shield to deflect attacks rather than attempt to withstand their full impact. You permanently gain X% of your shield's Block value as Defense and Ranged Defense (currently X) and Y% more while Blocking (currently Y), but your Block is only Z% as effective at reducing damage. Successfully evading an attack while blocking will always allow a counterstrike.
The defense bonuses increases with your Cunning and the Block effectiveness increases with your Strength.

Put the Bash and Smash shield crit in the talent itself at lvl 5.

I'm not sure what kind of other shield active would fit Skirmisher, though. Maybe a range 2-4 Rush that disarms?

Regarding Light Block, the only difference between a sustain that disables itself and an active is that the former requires to choose before the fight of what kind your first block will be. I don't think this is desirable gameplay-wise or makes much sense flavor-wise, as it's the kind of decision you take in the midst of battle, not in preparation of it. As an active, maybe an empty Light Block could have its cooldown reset if that's the issue, but being dependent on an enemy actually attacking you this turn is part of the drawbacks needed to add another escape to an already very mobile class.

[Davion Fuxa]

Right now Skirmishers only have one active Shield talent - Bash and Smash. That was designed to be an upfront 'out of my face' talent for Skimishers when an enemy approached close enough that did fair damage. Depending on how it gets changed it might be nice to have a comparable talent added to it. I was also thinking of a potential Disarm based talent as well - like you bash your shield into the enemies Swordarm temporarily disarming them. This isn't an escape but a way of handling melee attacks better.

[Fortescue]

Right now I'm thinking about killing Buckler Expertise (melee block) entirely.

The point of Skirmisher is to avoid being in melee range as much as possible, so having a way to negate 100% of melee damage is counter to how their play is intended. As you've mentioned, they have plenty of mobility and defenses at the moment, so I think they could stand to lose the melee block without being gimped.

The entire point of the shield in the first place was to be a superior ranged fighter, blocking enemy ranged attacks while pelting foes with your own. The mobility aspect was meant to handle staying away from melee enemies, and I think it is doing a good job of that, especially if the player gets movement speed bonuses.

I didn't think Counter Shot's ammo cost was going to be a big deal, but some people are saying it is, and I don't want to use up ammo randomly. Need to figure out what to do with this, or replace it entirely.

A big change I would like to make is creating a custom Combat Training category that has Leather Mastery and Sling Mastery, keeping Accuracy and Thick Skin as they are, and dropping the rest out. Not sure this is likely to ever happen though.

[Davion Fuxa]

I don't think you can probably expect Sling Mastery to make it to the Generic side. It's fitting to have Archery type talents like that in Class talents because Archery doesn't feel 'generic'. Customizing the Combat Training just for Skirmisher also doesn't feel very generic like either, the category should remain the same for all characters; but adding in a Light Armor talent to the Combat Training for all Skirmishers and other classes that competes with Armor Training seems fine if you can manage it.

Doing away with Melee Deflecting seems like a good idea to give melee enemies more of a chance to wreck a Skirmisher. Not only that, but taking off deflecting opens up Block as well - whether for emergency damage reduction, getting some counterattacks if the Skirmisher can managed to block all the damage, or whatnot.

Something you might consider doing with Counter Shot is reworking it into a talent that let's you 'Deflect' projectiles with a x% chance at other enemies when you manage to deflect projectiles with Buckler Mastery (or Buckler Expertise if you decide to call it that). Instead of using up your precious ammo, you are just making use of the enemies ammo to redirect it to hit their friends when they are shot at you. I wouldn't make the talent able to hit the enemy who shot it at you and I would probably make it a short ranged talent (like maybe 2 + 2/3*Talent Level) as to try to keep Skirmishers up close to enemies but not far away like they are now.

[grayswandir]

Regarding Block: I think it would be neat to disable block if you don't meet the normal requirements to equip a shield. So skirmishers could use block if they wanted - but only if they put the points into strength and armour training.