Arcane v Antimagic; Problem & Solution?

[Peep]

I'm going to make a large carepost about how unbalanced the Arcane v Antimagic thing in game here is. Please note that I use unbalanced more in the terms that Arcane is not on equal footing with Antimagic, rather then to say one is overpowered. Simply that in a game where Arcane v Antimagic is supposed to be a crucial point, its actually a rather binary choice due to a power disparity.

Arcane is supposed to be this wildly destructive and powerful force, and Nature is supposed to be this preserving and healing force. The archetypal Arcane example would be an Archmage with the Aegis tree, and the converse would be a Wyrmic with the Fungus tree. Spike damage and Shielding against Sustained DPS and regeneration.

But, unfortunately, the itemization/statization of mindpower and power of the Antimagic tree make Arcane out to be a very, very weak force in comparison. To the point that, on nearly every character that it is available, it is more beneficial to go antimagic and eschew everything Arcane. There are 24 classes in ToME. 12 are forced into the Arcane side. Their abilities are Arcane, can't even access Zigur if they wanted to. Additionally, there are also two races (Ghoul and Skeleton) who are forced into Arcane by virtue of their lifeblood (or lack thereof). Of the next 12, only one of them wishes to be Arcane; the rogue. This is because the itemization of items that the dagger needs to excel rely on arcane items. Notably, most artifact midgame daggers are Arcane and, correct me if I am wrong, most stealth boosting gear in the game is also arcane. 11 out of 12 classes with the choice to be on the arcane side of the game or on the antimagic side of the game all invariably choose antimagic. Why?

One large issue with the dilemma is the stat spread. Magic is an awful stat. It is required for every arcane class, bar none. All must eventually level magic. Magic grants only 1 spellpower per level and a third of a point of spell save. Spell Save, mind you, does not check against most of the worst ailments. They check either the physical or mental save.

Meanwhile, Wild-gift users require Willpower. Willpower is one of ToME's 'power stats', along with constitution and cunning, although it is the weakest of the three. Willpower grants: .7 Mindpower, 2.5 Stamina (If Applicable), 1 Psi (If Applicable), 5 Mana (If Applicable), A third of a spell save and a third of a mental save. Willpower doesn't give as much power as Magic, but gives a lot more defense and utility. But, that's the theme of Magic v Antimagic, right? Of course antimagic isn't as strong pound for pound.

The problem is that it is, much more so. Lets look at the second of the power stats, Cunning. Cunning offers so, so much, to the point where it, like constitution, is a stat every chracacter invests in. What does it offer? A third of a crit %, .4 Mindpower, and a third of a mental save. Its the crit chance and mindpower that really hammers it in. As cunning is a stat everyone wants, they'll probably max it second after willpower on a mindpower class, giving them a higher total mindpower before items then an arcane user. And items will drive the power home further.

There is a large problem with how easily itemized Mindpower is. Telekinetic Focus, Bloomsoul, Shadow-strung orbs, Rope-belt of the Thaloren and Spellhunt Remanants are all items that can show up early game that a mindpower character will hold until late game, and probably use. What does arcane have? Neira's memory? Outdone by Thaloren or Calm Waters. Astral Bindings? Pales in comparison to Spellhunt Remnants. Vestments of the Conclave if you are human, but everyone else will drop it in favor of Robe of Force or Spydre's Silk Robe the second it drops, both of which are psionic mindpower and will/cunning robes, mind you. Crystal Focus? Sure, but that's a different category. That's an item you simply don't use until late game.

The only great arcane artifacts that come to mind, and feel free to chime in if you feel I'm being disingenuous here, are the Frozen Cloak, Spire of Power/Awakened Staff, Spellblaze Echoes, Black Robe, Fiery Choker, Hourglass of time. Eldritch Pearl's pretty nice I guess. But how much of this is worth giving up Breath of Eyal? Guidance? Spellhunt Remnants? The one totem that gave a big antimagic boost from the Quicksilver Caves that I can't find in my vaults for the life of me? Not to mention the implicit forgoing of Mindstars, which in itself is another problem.

Mindstars are amazing. There is one bad artifact mindstar, Serpent's Gaze. Awful. Every other one? Amazing. Great, great stats, each custom built to a specific niche that makes them shine to a great degree. No staff is really focused to one niche besides Sceptre of the Archlich and Arcane Supremacy; they're all generalized. And they suffer a bit for it. Mindstars offer better stats, more malleable stats due to how they can be dual wielded, and provide more damage. The damage part is important. Arcane Blades can't really just go and pick up staff mastery and start wacking things with them that effectively. Staves suck as actual weapons. Good mod, terrible base damage, and are ruined by armor. Remember, armour isn't checked only against physical damage, but against all ranged and melee attacks, deal often variable damage. Mindstars, conversely, after 5 points in Mindstar Mastery have greater mods and similar damage, but theres two of them. Additionally, Mindstars bypass functionally all armor and add a focus on mind damage, allowing easier damage stacking.

Back to the point; An Arcane blade really shouldn't decide to just hit things with a staff to boost his magic and his melee at the same time. But, a Cursed? Wyrmic? Solipsist? Mindslayer? Summoner? Go ahead, hit things with your crazy mindstars, boost your raw melee damage and your powers at the same time. Arcane doesn't get this luxury. Staves are not used by anyone who can help it. But everyone who can get away with it wants mindstars. Or, at least, has the option to be strong if they decide to go that path.

This is all without even talking about the raw power of Antimagic. Resolve, after stacking mindpower (an easy feat as shown before with the amount you get from stats, items, and mindstars) can reach up to 50% elemental resistance. Most people will at least see 20-30% resist by endgame. Premonition, in the best of cases, hits 35%. Antimagic shield shreds all non-physical damage at the cost of equilibrium, making it unfeasible for equilibrium classes but great for others (especially mindslayer). Then there is Fungus. +5 turns on any regeneration infusion is so heinously powerful I don't even know where to begin. It effectively doubles the healing value of any regeneration infusion. Seeing 500/5 turn regen infusions late game isn't uncommon. That is 200 HP/turn before healing mod. Hitting 50% and higher healing mods isn't hard. 1,500 HP heal. With 5 points in the final ability, you get 1000% of your current regen value instantly. 300/hp turn immediately healing you for 3,000 HP. That's a 4,500 health healed in 5 turns. Fungus even eliminates the drawback of regeneration infusions costing a turn, the biggest issue in healing infusion vs shield. Shield always had the advantage of being instant, but at higher mindpower levels the third power in fungus even GIVES the user an extra turn past the one they use to trigger it. 101%+ turn refund.

This is getting long so I'm going to try and sum it up.

-Mindpower is too plentiful.
-Mindpower items are too good.
-Giving up runes and arcane items is not a big drawback for any class besides rogue.
-Antimagic is an amazing tree.
-Fungus is a ridiculous tree.
-Con/Will/Cunning are god. Magic/Dex/Strength suck.
-Nerf Solipsist. I didn't actually mention this at all but it really needs to always be said.

The heart of it is, there need to be better arcane items and talents. At the very least make there a questable arcane generic talent tree that is as strong as the antimagic talent tree, and another one that accentuates that. I don't care if its something as silly as Rune Mastery that lets you amplify damage of those nuke runes that barely anyone uses. Just something to help arcane users out in this crazy world that fears them despite them being pretty bad. Perhaps even shore up some early game artifacts that are arcane powered. Mindpower items overpower spellpower at every turn in usefulness at the moment.

And, god, I didn't even mention how much better the Zigur escourts are then the regular ones...

[SageAcrin]

http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=36307

I'm just going to leave this here. Many of your points are points of opinion and other people have some strikingly good points both ways, both supporting and denying things you've stated.

Personally, I think you're strongly overstating the situation, but there is sorta a problem with AM being too good in some cases.

Oh, and Solipsist hasn't had a full version(as opposed to Release Candidate) since their creation where they didn't get nerfed.

Edit to elaborate a bit on the overstatement: Full teleports are amazing and counteract a surprisingly large amount of what's listed there, and Shielding Runes, while less standout amazing as they compete with other options, are still instant durability. By contrast, many of the skillset based bonuses require heavy investment of points that could go to other good options. As someone that ran an Arcane Bulwark through with no deaths and strong investment in Arcane skillsets, I would never take an AM one. Less than a quarter of any Warrior class takes Antimagic out of recent winners-I don't think they're all idiots, they have good reasons for skipping it.

Also, some of your statistics, such as Resolve, are outright wrong-the aforementioned link gives accurate links for Resolve, and Premonition's baseline and growth is only slightly worse than Resolve-and kicks on for the elemental blow that hit you.

Oh, and I find Arcane escorts better. Celestial/Light is better than Call of the Wild or Dreaming, though not hugely, and Premonition and Chant of Fortitude are amazing single skills. Mobility's pretty good but niche, and Dream Walk's the main draw for single AM skills. Admittedly, Dream Walk's pretty great, but it's a vaguely directed Phase Door which is sorta a weird and non-perfect escape.

But yeah, this is the short version. Read the linked thread! It discusses this in far more depth than you're likely to get in a similar topic on the same forum.

[skein]

The only really valid point I see is about the staves. They are not incremented right for base damage. The first two tiers are ok but after that they fall off quickly and need to be redone.

A tier 5 staff should be doing base 50-60 instead of what they do and it is correct that many of the staves are way to general purpose. (the alchemist staff is spot on as well though)

tier 1 10-12
tier 2 20-24
tier 3 30-36
tier 4 40-48
tier 5 50-60

Kors fall should not just be a tier one greater staff with a couple of added stat points. It should be a commandable staff with a single focus of 25% plus some stats.

The thaloren anti disease staff is also a waste.

Power and wizardy should switch places in the creation process (it should be a greater staff of power). All of the staves that have an inherent damage activation do way to low on damage to be worthwhile. That damage activation has GOT to beat a simple wand on conjuration and it never does.

[SageAcrin]

Staffs have Channel Staff.

They don't need to be specific purpose, when you can literally buttonpress and make them specific purpose.

If Channel Staff needs to be expanded a bit, so be it, but as it stands, you trade lots of ultra-specific bonuses for the ability to get some use out of most any staff. They're less impressive relative to getting the exact Mindstar you want, but in exchange, most any staff is useful. That's not a useless bonus at all.

(Penitence is an exception in this regard, which is a shame, though. And their base physical damages going up a bit wouldn't bother me, though it is worth noting that the main use for them is ranged and should possibly be compared more to arrows and bullets than standard weapons. Still, a bit stronger on the base staffs probably wouldn't hurt.)

[phantomglider]

Resolve, after stacking mindpower (an easy feat as shown before with the amount you get from stats, items, and mindstars) can reach up to 50% elemental resistance. Most people will at least see 20-30% resist by endgame. Premonition, in the best of cases, hits 35%.

I think I need to mention a difference between Resolve and Premonition that is non-obvious but makes a very large difference in how effective the two skills are. Premonition triggers before you take damage, and can't change elements while it's already active, while Resolve triggers afterwards and can. This means that in the best-case scenario for Resolve - you're facing a lone boss that only does a single elemental type of damage - you take a bit more damage to start, but then take less. But in less than optimal conditions it can jump between a bunch of different damage types without ever actually reducing any damage you take, while even in the worst-case scenario Premonition will shave a couple of damage points off a weak attack of an irrelevant element, and in more mundane bad situations will at least be reducing the damage you take from somebody.

Premonition isn't always better than Resolve, but the difference there is important enough that I don't find it unreasonable that Resolve gets a better resist boost and a couple of other bennies.

[Grey]

I think a scalpel needs taking to a number of things. But the answer isn't to just buff magic. With the right builds you can have some crazy strong archmages at the moment. A few things can be touched up, but the real answer is to smartly nerf a number of Nature things, in particular dual-wielded mindstars.

Overall I'd say magic is capable of being very powerful, but few master it truly. Magic in the world is not as common or strong as it used to be.

[omeg]

(Wild)fire is just too powerful compared to other elements for archmages. I know that DG likes to burninate things but...

[SageAcrin]

Mindstars were designed to be dualwielded, though.

Relative to staffs, they have far less Mindpower than any staff-to the point where two of any Mindstars in the game will generally not match a mid-high range staff's spellpower. Granted, different scales to a degree, but still. They similarly are, for the most part, lesser in bonuses across the board.

Unless you mean the raw damage from hitting people with them. At which point I think that was buffed some...four? times in production because people kept complaining they didn't do enough. Never quite agreed that they needed to be that buffed, but people seemed happy with it.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing Psiblades have less multiplier boosting myself, and the Mindstar Mastery alternate skills get converted to weapon formula damage instead of a flat rate Mindpower damage, to round the tree out some. Maybe something like 0.2 to 0.4 both weapons damage for Leaves Tide, per turn. And something like 1.1 to 1.8 both weapons for Thorn Grab.

This way, the tree becomes stronger overall, possibly...but much weaker at simple bump attack damage, weaker as a simple Psiblades pickup off escorts or a 5/0/0/0 of the tree(Sadly, some of the most common uses for the tree right now), and more of a spread out and balanced investment. And, notably, is one of the few ways to get decent multiplier physical attacks without being a specific class, which is kinda unique.

[Mewtarthio]

And, god, I didn't even mention how much better the Zigur escourts are then the regular ones...

Really? Let's compare:

Seer: I wouldn't betray a seer unless I was already planning to go antimagic. Premonition protects you from sudden spikes of damage, like when an enemy spellcaster opens with Freeze or Manathrust, plus it's a sustain, so the usual mana regen issues don't come into play. Arcane Eye is the only talent that lets you look inside a vault before opening it. Nature's Touch is a pretty good heal, but Divination gives you utility you can't really get anywhere else.

Alchemist: I'll admit that Mindstar Mastery is way better than Staff Combat. Classes that can use mindstars would be well-advised to jump on the opportunity. Still, none of the Warrior classes can use mindstars at all without shutting off half their talents. Rogues, meanwhile, are fragile enough that they need runes, particularly teleport runes. Stone Alchemy is useful for any non-antimagic class: The first two talents don't use spellpower, so you can just wear items to qualify for them. Extract Gems gives you a nice boost to income which comes in handy when it's time to check out the merchant's special services, while Imbue Item lets you use gems. If you can't spare the category point, though, that's understandable; at that point, it comes down to which stat boosts you want more.

Sun Paladin: Chant. Of. Fortitude.

Anorithil: Light versus Field Control? How is that even a contest?

Alternate Timeline Self: Here's one where betrayal can be a good idea. Dreaming's a decent tree, and Dream Walk's a decent talent. Chronomancy is currently not that helpful, seeing as you need to trigger an anomaly to reduce your paradox.

So, that makes one class I wouldn't betray, one class where I'd have to think about it, and three classes where I'd only betray if I was already planning on going antimagic. How do you break them down?

[supermini]

If you believe arcane to be weak, you're playing the game wrong.

Corruptors, archmages, sun paladins, reavers, arcane blades...Those are all super powerful classes. Necromancers don't fall far behind if you can get past the early game. While I'm not saying that AM is not too powerful in some cases - and it is, mostly on classes that don't natively use equilibrium and/or have some other defense mechanisms that stack with AM - far from it that arcane is weak.

As for your other points:

-Best endgame rogue daggers are not arcane actually (iirc). Lifedrinker is a casting dagger, not a rogue dagger. Both mandible and orc feller are, I believe, not arcane.

-Comparing Magic and willpower like for like proves nothing. There's a lot to stat considerations that can't be deduced by directly comparing. Corruptors don't run willpower at all and are stronger for it - because they can run magic and cunning as the primary stats.

-Your itemization examples are poor. You don't run telekinetic core, you run torque of psychoportation on AM classes, because guess what, you don't have teleport. Shadow-strung orbs is something that I would switch to on melee when trying to hit invisible enemies. If you're not facing one or you're a caster you're better off running something with resistances or status resists or mastery bonuses or...basically almost anything else. Rope belt of the thaloren is nifty for casting stats, but if I have to choose between that and calm waters, I'd probably run calm waters - especially if you're planning on running fungus. Spellhunt remnants sound nice for the late game, but guess what, so does the crystal focus. I'd wear heroic gauntlets in the early game instead.

-For arcane artifacts, I don't really understand what you're getting at. You listed some of the best artifacts in the game (Black Robe, Fiery Choker, Frozen Cloak), and then just dismissed them?

-Your next point is even weaker. Staves suck as actual weapons and arcane blades can't use them effectively as a weapon? So what does that prove? Arcane blades were designed around the fact that they don't get spellpower bonuses from staves, that's why they get spellpower bonuses from cunning. As for the supposed weakness of endgame staves, there's top half of telos + lifedrinker/lunar shield, lost staff of tarelion, and telos' spire of power. Try any of these and tell me they are weak.

-Effectiveness of mindstars as ultimate weapons is overstated. If you're interested in casting, they are probably better. For hitting stuff with say, a wyrmic, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that something like Gaping Maw or Legacy of the Naloren is going to be weaker. If that is the case, then mindstars need to have their damage lowered.

-Your numbers on a lot of things in the final passage are way off. Lets take regen. Assuming you find a regen infusion with the right stat that heals 450 over 5 turns (I've found more powerful ones but they are hardly common). That's 90 hp/turn base. You would need a healmod of 220 to get to 200 hp/turn that you mention. That's some heavy gearing towards healmod.

[Parcae2]

While I disagree that antimagic is overpowered as such (mainly because I play the ID and antimagic doesn't scale well), I do agree that there is one significant flaw in game balance: the complete lack of mindpower-specific counters. The game has many effective counters to spellpower-based characters (disperse magic, corrupted negation, antimagic, and so on), and several to physical power-based characters (corrupted negation again, ravage, evasion, defense and so on), but none specific to mindpower. Case in point: aside from the Weirdling Beast, there isn't a single monster in the game who can remove mind buffs.

[Frumple]

Just... on the subject of staves. I think they might be fine. Maybe. Though Tig might can chime in as to what the blue hell 'e was doing with that character.

[supermini]

While I disagree that antimagic is overpowered as such (mainly because I play the ID and antimagic doesn't scale well), I do agree that there is one significant flaw in game balance: the complete lack of mindpower-specific counters.

Mental saves? They work on almost everything mindpower related, much more than spell saves help against magic.

[PureQuestion]

While I can say with little hyperbole the commonness of Mindpower granting items is largely my fault, a lot of arcane items are just as potent.

And I think there's one very important part: You can use arcane items without having a negative effect on anything (aside from not being able to access the antimagic tree but you know), but using Antimagic items impacts your ability to use spells, and spells are very powerful.

It's actually really funny, a year ago, Antimagic was considered a really bad choice; Arcane items were too good.

[Nori]

It's actually really funny, a year ago, Antimagic was considered a really bad choice; Arcane items were too good.

I remember that... I would never have gone AM then. Really has come a long way.

I do kind of agree about the magic stat... I mean for a arcane user you need it for the spellpower and such, but every point in it I wish was one in Willpower because that would give me some nice saves and much needed mana..