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[bricks]

How did making a simplified module turn into Dwarf Fortress?

I've played a few of the space-trader roguelikes, and I have to say that I find them very dull. It does have some merit as a framing element and a motivation (if not the only motivation) for the character, but I'd rather not be in charge of lugging space doubloons back and forth. Exploration definitely sounds more interesting, and making trade contacts could be part of the exploration.

Really crazy idea I've wanted to pursue: Land (crash-land?) on an alien planet; organize the survivors; categorize the local flora and fauna; explore nearby locations; and finally, establish human settlements. That's pretty much unobtainable for a small-scale roguelike, but you could use a snapshot of that story as your world; a partially-inhabited, partially-reclaimed alien planet.

Sci-fi has three main settings - future earth, alien planets, and space. We probably won't be touching Earth in this roguelike, so which of the two would you all prefer, exploring alien planets or exploring space? I'd rather explore a planet, simply because it's an innately 2D topology and it can be populated with large hosts of alien life and lost technology. There could be more than one planet, too, but traveling between them would be abstracted away and initially restricted for some story-based reason.

[Devorius]

Ah, gene splicing sounds great. As does the robotic counterpart. Perhaps implement both as separate races. The code would be basically the same for both; mostly cosmetic differences, and a different range of modules.

Now, how about a gene-splicing cyborg shape shifter? Mwaha, yeah.

As for travel, how about rather than use ships for moving from planet to planet, we could use dimensional portals. Or both:

The player awakes about a derelict space ship, not having any previous memory. The ship could initially start out heavily damaged, the the player would need to collect resources, skilled crew, and craft new parts for the ship. It would start out limited, with the ship drifting through a system; the player would first have to restore power, lifesupport, and the teleporter that will be used for visiting planets. I think the player should not immediately have access to the teleporter, either, and has to initially land (crash) an escape pod/shuttle on one of the initial planets. From there, gather resources to repair the shuttle (yeah, shuttle: an escape pod wouldn't really allow a way back, unless... the pod is equipped with a limited teleport that will only return to the ship).

After this first part, which I think should be relatively quick to accomplish so that you don't have to waste so much time whenever you make a new character, the ship could then be used to explore (with limited fuel, requiring resource gathering to replenish).

Gene/robotic module upgrades, or even item/equipment module crafting, as the player restores the various systems of the ship.

I now pause for further thoughts from everyone.

[darkgod]

Gene spliting is good

As for travel between planet you could have very expensive/unreliable/rare/... FTL ships and have most "normal" travels be done through pre-established gates (by the said ships).
The commonwealth series from Peter Hamilton is like that and it's hell fun! (They travel between planets mostly by .. railroad!)

[bricks]

Thought on damage types: More physical damage types, lots of hybrid types. Example:

Base types:
Edge Damage
Shrapnel Damage
Concussive Damage
Heat Damage
Acid Damage
Shock Damage
Cold Damage
Mental Damage

Derived types:
Fire Damage: Heat damage + burning effect (much like ToME, though burning could have special effects depending on enemy/terrain)
Corrosive Damage: Acid damage + armor reduction (again like ToME, nothing original here)
EMP Damage: Shock damage + disables electronics
Cryo Damage: Cold damage + freezing/"brittle" effect
Mind Damage: Mental damage + temporary mind-control effect

Hybrid types:
Plasma Damage: Shock + Heat
Entropic Damage: Heat + Cold
Nerve Damage: Shock + Mental

Hybrid-derived types:
Blast Damage: Concussive + Shrapnel + knockback effect
Explosive Damage: Concussive + Heat + burning effect

I think distinction like this would help pare down the number of damage types, but still allow for more interesting combinations and synergies. This isn't too far removed from ToME, but it would be better to see an emphasis on derived/hybrid damage types for attacks, instead of purely one damage type. Resistances should feel more like innate powers, derived through semi-permanent means (genetic modification, race choice, armor). I don't think the player should ever feel like a resistance is "necessary" unless it is easy to obtain (perhaps at the sacrifice of flexibility or loss of an important equipment/upgrade slot). Further, negative resistances should be more interesting; hitting an explosive spiderbeetle with heat damage shouldn't just damage it considerably, it should actually cause it to explode.

Thought on monsters: Sci-fi versions of elementals. Instead of beings composed of "elemental fire" or whatever, they should be sentient high-tech metamaterial aggregates. Sort of like being attacked by a liquid-crystal display or a bundle of fiber-optic cables. They needn't appear on their own, either; they could combine with each other or with carbon-based fauna to create biosynths.

Bleh, getting too excited about this. Does anyone think they could get the ball rolling on the coding? Every time I try to disassemble the example module I get mired down in the engine code.

[Devorius]

Hypergates are good.

Has anyone else here played Escape Velocity? It was a Mac-only game, except for the last title (Nova).

My favorite space trader/pirate game. For inter-system travel, each system has a set of other systems that can be jumped to from the current system. You can jump from any point (so long as you are not to close to the system center, and have the fuel). The last one also had hypergates, which allowed quick-travel to points that would normally take several jumps to get to. You had to, through a particular mission string, gain access codes to the gates in order to use them.

It had lots of features; the universe changed depending on what mission strings you took from various factions (Nova had a number: the Federation (stretching out from Sol to other systems and being secretly ran by the "Bureau of Investigation"), Rebels (small faction aimed at outing the Bureau and returning the Federation to the control of the people), Aurorans (an empire based on the warrior-caste similar to Klingons from Star Trek, which are at war with the Federation), Polaris (technilogically advanced, with bio-tech ships that are part machine, part living organism), 3 different pirate factions (though I think only two are joinable, iirc), the Vell-os (pretty awesome: they are powerful telepaths that create ships directly with their mind, which are not subject to inertia. They start out enslaved by the Bureau; you end up becoming one and eventually evolving to a Godform in order to free them), plus a large number of smaller groups that are not major plot-wise (meaning: the other factions listed, their strings all take you through the main plot with different results depending on which you follow), but offer extras, such as better tech. The hypergate system is also accessed through one of these non-critical groups (Sigma Shipyards).

[Devorius]

Thought on damage types: More physical damage types, lots of hybrid types. Example:

Base types:
Edge Damage
Shrapnel Damage
Concussive Damage
Heat Damage
Acid Damage
Shock Damage
Cold Damage
Mental Damage

Derived types:
Fire Damage: Heat damage + burning effect (much like ToME, though burning could have special effects depending on enemy/terrain)
Corrosive Damage: Acid damage + armor reduction (again like ToME, nothing original here)
EMP Damage: Shock damage + disables electronics
Cryo Damage: Cold damage + freezing/"brittle" effect
Mind Damage: Mental damage + temporary mind-control effect

Hybrid types:
Plasma Damage: Shock + Heat
Entropic Damage: Heat + Cold
Nerve Damage: Shock + Mental

Hybrid-derived types:
Blast Damage: Concussive + Shrapnel + knockback effect
Explosive Damage: Concussive + Heat + burning effect

Don't forget Radiation!

[yufra]

I know the engine fairly well and can get things coded (although much slower than DG and the alleged code minions he keeps in a lightless basement somewhere). I would personally prefer that we spend a bit of time fleshing out the ideas a bit further, though.

One of the most important decisions is on the mechanics of the game. Is the emphasis going to be on fighting? If we remove leveling then there is much less incentive to go around killing things, and there should be more mechanics to keep the game interesting. If we go with the organic (as opposed to robotic) player stranded on an alien planet then the mechanics should probably include food and water, then defense in the forms of fighting or building or stealth, etc. Do we want a lot of damage types (like ToME), or really pare it down?

Here is a potential premise. You are a scientist (alien, futuristic human, other) researching genetics, and specifically a mysterious plant that recently appeared on your world and is slowly dominating the local ecology. You have a Dr. Jekyll moment, splice some of its genome into yours and whoops, you just discovered the mechanism of how the plant appeared on your world: it can open a temporary gate between planets. The downside? Well this gate really screws up with your genetics, so when you first land on a new planet you have many negative mutations that must be corrected by gene splicing the local fauna/flora. The goal? At least initially it could be open-ended, or maybe just trying to gate enough times to get back home? Or DG's favorite... universe domination!

[Devorius]

One of the most important decisions is on the mechanics of the game. Is the emphasis going to be on fighting? If we remove leveling then there is much less incentive to go around killing things, and there should be more mechanics to keep the game interesting. If we go with the organic (as opposed to robotic) player stranded on an alien planet then the mechanics should probably include food and water, then defense in the forms of fighting or building or stealth, etc. Do we want a lot of damage types (like ToME), or really pare it down?

I think the motivation for combat should be to aquire new genes. Also, how about requiring multiple samples of the same gene be found in order to gain an ability/increase its power. Further: have the player's dna be in a constant state of destabalization, requiring more samples to "refresh" his/her genetic structure.

Here is a potential premise. You are a scientist (alien, futuristic human, other) researching genetics, and specifically a mysterious plant that recently appeared on your world and is slowly dominating the local ecology. You have a Dr. Jekyll moment, splice some of its genome into yours and whoops, you just discovered the mechanism of how the plant appeared on your world: it can open a temporary gate between planets. The downside? Well this gate really screws up with your genetics, so when you first land on a new planet you have many negative mutations that must be corrected by gene splicing the local fauna/flora. The goal? At least initially it could be open-ended, or maybe just trying to gate enough times to get back home? Or DG's favorite... universe domination!

How about two seperate game threads, one the gene-splicing scientist, and the other a sentient robot, eventually competing against eachother for universal domination?

This would involve competing over planets. I think the mutant vs. tech would be an interesting setup. The robotic character can build other robots: sentries, turrets, assault bots, utility (such as builder, repair-bot, etc) and the construction of buildings.

The gene-splicer would be able to breed varying mutants, along the same line as the selection the robot has, also growing organic buildings. Things like... a mutant flytrap that spits acid in place of mechanical gunner turrets, etc.

I think both archetypes should have subclasses as well, focusing on varied fields such as attack, defense, mininion-creation (trying to avoid calling them summons )

[bricks]

Devorious mirrors my thoughts exactly. Scenarios like the gene-splicing scientist could be one of many possible starts for the game, as well as being a choice that motivates actions taken further along in the plot (whatever those may be). Some soft-RTS elements could be nice; maybe you don't control units directly, but you can establish influence over certain key areas and get bonuses in that region. Each starting scenario could be a planet that is initially explored and conquered, then the planets from the rest of the universe, including the other starting scenarios (but scaled up and further along in the plot) and other key territories.

Other possible starting scenarios:
Militant conquerers, strong in the use of conventional weaponry and biomechanical augmentations
Space-faring merchants, broad technological access and excellent diplomacy
Grassroots rebels/separatists/colonists, least specialized of all but better at gaining global influence
Fanatic space cult (you play as their god-emperor), utilize ancient alien tech discovered on their planet
Hive-mind alien faction (spaceyeeks) with a sentient homeworld

These would all be implemented over time, of course, but they make a rather well-rounded cast. Also, with DG's permission - inclusion of the Sher'Tul? I'm not entirely sure what's up with them, but they certainly seem like space explorers.

Edit: Editing because I feel like I'm hogging this thread a little. If a soft-RTS approach was taken, "turns" (which I would guess would make this a turn-based strategy game) or "cycles" should be measured by certain landmarks, instead of by actual in-game time. The latter falls in the vein of food clocks, which I think work well for Hack-style games, but not for this situation. These landmarks should be straightforward; exploring a new territory, conquering a zone, things the player has discretion over. The balance and fun would come from how the player chooses to invest their time; is it more important to stamp out a rebellion or to gain control over a trade hub?

Edit2: Just going to throw out that I'm a biological engineering undergraduate student, planning to study synthetic and systems biology as a postgraduate. So if there's a technical question about gene splicing, what's going on in current research, or if you just want to know some snappy technical terms, hit me up.

[lukep]

I like the idea of gene splicing for character progression. My idea: have various (interchangable) genes or mechanical parts for a mutant/cyborg/robot player character. For example, if you were playing as a robot, you could swap out your Arm of Superior Bashing (+3) for an Arm of Extreme Precision (+7) if you were to find a schematic for it. Similarly, a mutant character could swap out their Gene of Far Sight (+8) with a Gene of X-ray Vision (+1) before going out to fight in a crowded area. Part and gene swapping would only be accessible in a home base, not in the middle of fights.

For this, I see the player starting as halfway between organic and mechanical, with the ability to go entirely in one direction of the other at significant expense. A full robot or full mutant would have better synergies with itself than a cyborg, but would be more vulnerable to specialized attacks suck as EMP or toxins, giving an incentive for balance between the two extremes.

[Devorius]

\These would all be implemented over time, of course, but they make a rather well-rounded cast. Also, with DG's permission - inclusion of the Sher'Tul? I'm not entirely sure what's up with them, but they certainly seem like space explorers.

Perhaps Maj'Eyal could be an unlockable world to conquer, an easter egg. Perhaps with a slight comedic twist...

[Rectifier]

My face when I see this thread

My face when I read this thread

[Canderel]

Some ideas/thoughts I want to mention.

The engine supports "real-time", and making it real time could prioritize some development in ensuring the engine genuinely supports it. But I'm not specifically pushing that way.

I like the robot and gene grafting angles, 2 routes, almost like magic/antimagic (though different obviously). Though for several reasons (my own) I'd like the game to be "short". As in play time, so level-up/"improve self" every 2-3 minutes or so (if you play realtime). Making a full game about 1 hour. (I am second guessing myself here... Anyway, not longer than 8 hours play then... sigh...)

This would require less complexity in the plot and development of it, and make balancing easier, more focus can be given to gameplay elements.

I created a google docs spreadsheet called Gene Revolution (but the name is not at all set) where we can set ideas mechanics etc. in place.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 0JMYnNFMUE

[yufra]

Thanks Canderel. I hadn't considered doing real-time versus turn-based. I think turn-based emphasizes tactics whereas real-time emphasizes trained reflexes. We could also do a hybrid which is slow real-time, effectively a timed turn-based.

I like lukep's idea about letting the player move in either the robotic or genetic directions, and the balance between synergy and vulnerability. I would prefer avoiding the emphasis on numbers for the various schematics, though. I think it would be great to have a module where the emphasis is not on "upgrading" (+2 replaces +1) so much as it is on "customizing" the player. Do others like this idea as well? I don't know what the implications of such an emphasis would be, so feel free to bring up any qualms/questions.

EDIT: And Devorious... easter egg awesomeness.

[lukep]

I like lukep's idea about letting the player move in either the robotic or genetic directions, and the balance between synergy and vulnerability. I would prefer avoiding the emphasis on numbers for the various schematics, though. I think it would be great to have a module where the emphasis is not on "upgrading" (+2 replaces +1) so much as it is on "customizing" the player. Do others like this idea as well? I don't know what the implications of such an emphasis would be, so feel free to bring up any qualms/questions.

That's what I was going for, it wasn't as clear as I could have made it. That being said, I don't think that all parts/genes need to be useful throughout the entire game. I'm fine with having an Arm of Bashing (+7) be better in every way than an Arm of Bashing (+6), as long as it involves tradeoffs with an Arm of Slicing (+1).

-------

Just thought of one way to do the gene/robot tradeoff (though, on quick second thought, it may be a bit too complex). Have the player have two secondary health bars, tentatively called "blood" (for organic parts), and "power" (for mechanical parts). Some attacks damage blood or power in addition/instead of health, with the damage multiplied by the number of organic or mechanical parts present.When one of the bars is emptied, you lose the use of the corresponding part of your powers. It should be difficult but not impossible to improve the amount of power or blood that a character has, to promote diverse builds.

Examples: (The same could be done for blood damage with toxins, diseases etc...)

The player has Motion Scan Camera "eyes", and no other mechanical devices. He is hit by a 40 power Super-EMP cannon, taking 40 power damage (1 parts * 40 damage each) out of his 100 power. He is now at 60/100 power, and can still function normally.

The player has Motion Scan Camera "eyes", a Liquid Metal arm, and a Positronic Mental Augmentation. He is hit by a 40 power Super-EMP cannon, taking 120 power damage (3 parts * 40 damage each) out of his 100 power. He is now at 0/100 power, and is blind, unable to use one arm, and loses the mental buff until his power regenerates to 1/100 in 5(?) turns without taking power damage. He can still move normally, use his other arm, and anything else that uses organic parts.

The player has Motion Scan Camera "eyes", omnidirectional microphone "ears", a Liquid Metal arm, a Hydraulic arm, a Positronic Mental Augmentation, a Shielded Capacitor "chest", and light tank tread "feet". He is hit by a 40 power Super-EMP cannon, taking 280 power damage (7 parts * 40 damage each) out of his 150 (including the bonus 50 from the chest) power. He is now at 0/150 power, and is blind, deaf, unable to use either arm, loses the mental buff, and cannot move until his power regenerates to 1/150 in 3 (faster because of chest) turns without taking power damage. Alternatively, he could drain a capacitor in his chest piece, restoring 20 power instantly, but debuffing him until it recharges fully in 20 turns. Until he regains power, he is very vulnerable, having almost no abilities.

Note that running out of both blood and power would be a very strong debuff, but I do not imagine it to be fatal. There could also be ways to regenerate them through item, body part, equipment (if included) or talent (also, if included) use.