Cursed..

[benli]

You're right about stalk, I had actually made it a instantaneous sustained. It has no cooldown because in practice it takes a few turns to even warm up and many opponents don't survive long enough for it to kick in. The original version I tried was automatic or targeted with no turn-based bonus buildup and had a cooldown after killing your prey. It felt a little random about when it was in cooldown. I'm happy with current one for the levels I've played.

Hate management is a challenge. Doomed works better with feed and higher hate costs so I'm moving more in that direction with Cursed. Stalk allows for a kind of melee-based feed mechanic that isn't overpowered and easier to balance.

I'd consider some trees for two-handers, dual-wielders or shield users. It just seems like an awful lot of work to write with that many good hate-based talents. I've been looking into synergies a bit more with existing talents (stalked prey bonues, cursed weapon bonues, etc). I might think about adding a few for different weapon types. For example, a cleave bonus for two-handers, a slash bonus for dual wielders, etc.

I also think I'll add a new defensive talent (level 2 strife; replacing assail?): An instantaneous damage shield that is built from a % of the damage you deal over several turns. Aggressive and defensive!

[Frumple]

Having the various talents react differently to different weapon types sounds very interesting -- I've been half-heartedly considering attempting (or at least suggesting, ha) something similar for Arcane Blades, for whom 2handed weapons are currently almost entirely inferior to dual-wielding, despite the class starting with a 2hander and having no overt dual-wield trees

It's usually more interesting, imo, to have talents that react differently to different weapons than to have different talents entirely for different weapons, so implementing synergies for your cursed fellows is something I'd rather enjoy seeing.

[darkgod]

Dont turn fateful aura into a class tree, other classes can now gain it

[edge2054]

While you're thinking about major overhauls Benli I want to chime in with something that bothers me a bit about the classes. They break a lot of precedents set by the rest of the game and it leads to some rather odd equipment choices as well as some difficulty explaining things to new players.

For instance none of the Doomed talents use spellpower. Yet the class starts off with a staff and wearing a robe and to a new player looks a lot like a cursed mage of some kind. Though they really play more like a Psionic with a few magic (and purely magic) based trees tossed in. Because of this a Doomed player is better off using two mystic weapons then they are using a staff.

Also they use their own hit functions which makes it a bit harder to understand and is an extra rules set for the player to comprehend. I realize the module hit rolls were pretty unbalanced when you wrote the classes but they're much more curved now and I'm personally a fan of keeping things as streamlined as possible.

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Additionally many of your talents are very player centric. Take Vaporize for instance. For a player talent this looks pretty balanced. It's a giant nuke on a long cooldown. Not that big of a deal because the player can only use it every other encounter or so and probably won't get it off more then once in a boss fight.

Now imagine getting hit with it as a player.

First of all many NPCs will push raw talent levels up past five. Second of all they don't have a level cap of 50 (this is important because of how you're calculating spelldamage). Finally an NPC only has one target to kill so if it one shots the player it's really not going to care about the 40 turn cooldown and I doubt the player will either. A level 30 enemy with level 10 vaporize and 50ish magic will hit the player for over 600 arcane damage (and this is nothing really, random uniques can push all these numbers much higher then this).

Something Darkgod told me when I first started conceptualizing stuff for the paradox mage was that long cooldowns aren't good balancers. I think with the advent of random uniques this is especially true and something to keep in mind as you go forward.

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Since I did so much criticizing I figure I should add a dose of stuff I do like. Your talents tend to be very imaginative and I've always been impressed by how you break the mold with things. Creeping Darkness for instance is just a really cool effect and I can see the time that went into it when I look at the code. Shadows are awesome as well (though I wish they scaled a bit better). Many of your particle effects are great too and I'm very envious of your ability to do cool particles (I'm still mostly swapping colors with other particles). There's a ton of other things I like too and I hope I didn't sound to nitpicky above.

[edge2054]

Random thought on the above. What if a percentage of spellpower was rolled into their purely will based trees? Would give the class more cohesion.

[Nevuk]

I think the only generic tree that really fits as a class tree is the one with unnatural body in it. Unfortunately Doomed share this one - maybe one of their class could become generic to compensate? (For instance the shade tree seems under-utilized/under powered for a class tree).

Maybe points in unnatural body could increase either attack value or physical/mental power? This would free up some generic points and hopefully make the first few levels of cursed a bit easier.

[benli]

This is my latest talent set for cursed. The major difference is the level 4 sustains and talents that have moved.

*CURSED FORM*
Unnatural Body
Unchanged except each cursed armor equiped restores 3% healing factor.
Seethe
Changed. Hate loss stops at low hate levels and you can gain back hate at very low levels.
Relentless
Unchanged.
Unfeeling
Changed. Adds 8% mind and darkness resistance per level.

*SLAUGHTER*
Slash
Unchanged.
Frenzy
Unchanged.
Reckless Charge
Unchanged.
Cleave
1 of 3 sustains (cleave, surge, repel) where activating one deactivates the others and puts them on cooldown.
Chance to cleave to a second foe. Improves with two-handed weapons.

*ENDLESS HUNT*
Stalk
Passive. 2 consecutive turns hitting a foe begins stalking them for 40 turns or until dead. Increases attack and damage % based on a bonus level that goes up with consecutive turns striking or down if not striking. Only one foe can be stalked at a time and damage against others is reduced. Adds a hate per turn hit bonus (.05, .1, .15)
Preternatural Senses.
Unchanged except always see stalked prey in a range of 10.
Harass Prey
Two weak harassing attacks against an adjacent stalked prey that reduces the damage they inflict by x% (up to a cumulative maximum of y%). Each attack that hits will put one talent on cooldown for up to z turns.
Surge
1 of 3 sustains (cleave, surge, repel) where activating one deactivates the others and puts them on cooldown.
Increases movement speed (30-70%). Dual wielding gives a chance at striking with one weapon after moving.

*STRIFE*
Dominate
Changed. Range 2; prevents movement for 4 turns and leaves them prone by reducing armor, defence and adding damage penetration. If at range 1, you get to attack while dominating.
Bait
Unchanged.
Blindside
Unchanged except levels lower cooldown.
Repel
1 of 3 sustains (cleave, surge, repel) where activating one deactivates the others and puts them on cooldown.
Chance (4-10%) to repel each melee attack against you. +5% when using a shield.

*GLOOM*
Unchanged except you get a effectiveness bonus against stalked prey.

*RAMPAGE*
Unchanged except hate loss is fixed.

*FATEFUL AURA*
Unchanged.


I've coded all of this, but have not balance tested it. I'll probably spend some time playing with it before sending it in. Surge and Bait bear some resemblance to the Marauder class that was just posted. Hopefully the two classes will be distinct enough.

Edge: I wasn't planning on any balance changes for Doomed for a bit but I probably could lower the cooldown for vaporize. The hate cost and chance of confusion are the main reasons its not a primary attack; the cooldown just needs to be longish at 20+. Not sure about NPCs though. I kind of like the talent so I could turn it off for NPCs or cap the damage. I'll have to look over all of the talents for balance. Doomed NPCs can be tough. As for Doomed's weapon, I thought about adding sling talents, but I think staves/spellpower work better. I don't know if it would add power or something else...

[bricks]

I like the mutually exclusive sustains. If you want to make Surge more distinct... the movement speed bonus could be slighter, but would get a larger and larger additional bonus depending on how far away you are from the target you are stalking. Fleeing enemies are kind of rare, and difficult to prioritize over nearby targets, so that might not actually be very useful.

Why the mind/darkness resistances? Purely thematic? Both damage types are pretty rare - which makes me thinks, we need more cursed/doomed enemies!

[lukep]

I like the three sustains, especially the + movement speed one, which would help to keep Hate high between fights, although I think that Repel could use some help. At a 15% chance, I can't see myself using it over the other two, unless it's a much more powerful effect than I am thinking. It looks to me like it is either Evasion, but 1/3 the chance, or like Riposte, but half the chance and less powerful because it's a shield. Maybe if it was a chance for a Force of Will style effect, but possibly not even then.

[benli]

Why the mind/darkness resistances? Purely thematic? Both damage types are pretty rare - which makes me thinks, we need more cursed/doomed enemies!

I wanted something that didn't need to be invested in but could help with ranged attackers if you took it. I might replace it if I find a need while testing. BTW, I like your list of cursed enemies.

At a 15% chance, I can't see myself using it over the other two

I'll bump it up. I want all 3 sustains to be roughly equal in power and the weapon style bonuses to be equal as well. I might see if I can code it to block arrows/bolts as well which would be useful.

[bricks]

Another thought on the "Surge" ability - it's not a bad idea (and would be quite useful), but Cursed do already have some means of moving about the field. Instead, why not a "Call of Amakthel"-style ability? It's something of a double-edged sword, made more valuable by free attacks when dual-wielding. For added fun, give it a bonus (range/level of effect/move through other mobs) to stalk'ed enemies, and at a high level (adjusted level 5?), allow you to use it to begin stalking a target.

Also, a quick note on Doomed, if you plan to make any changes - Call Shadows could stand to be included in the "do not recast on level-up" set of skills, and the intermittent levels (2/5 and 4/5) could use some sweetening, such as reducing the hate cost of summoning a shadow. I made a post on it in the ideas forum, but it didn't seem to illicit much interest .

Hopefully some of those Cursed enemies make it in. It was pretty fun to come up with the ideas; Doomed have some of the most interesting talents in the game, both functionally and thematically.

[jotwebe]

Some ideas based on your stated goals for the class.

... bosses ...

If you still need something to help hate with boss fights, how about making Dominate and/or Stalk give/increase hate per hit on the target, but disallow hate gain from other sources?

5. More tactics and mobility (to make combat more interesting).
Dominate's pinning effect adds some tactics. I'd still like something else though.

Reduce Blindside's cooldown by one per kill on killing stuff?

Make Smash move you into the square where your victim stands and push your victim one square backwards if it fails to resist the stun (and there's a square free behind it). If there's no square, increase stun duration by a turn.

[edge2054]

Not sure if you frequent t4.org or read the posts there Benli but I felt this was relevant.

http://te4.org/blogs/xali/2011/10/doome ... omment-651

[benli]

Thanks for the link. That is helpful. I was planning on taking a look at doomed again after I fixed Fateful Aura and touch up a couple things on Cursed. I've been meaning to switch Doomed to mindpower/spellpower and to do something with their weapons or equipment. The comments on magic talents will also need to be addressed, probably at the same time I figure out mindpower/spellpower.

[bricks]

If Doomed gets moved more towards a "dark psionic" concept, the Primal Magic tree would be interesting and appropriate for Stone Wardens (with a little tweaking, of course), assuming that's still a thing. It'd be a shame to lose Displace, though. Instant-cast teleports are awesome.