The Defining Features of ToME4

[bricks]

I've made two ToME fans. That number would be zero if the player only got one life. I'm not even sure I'd have stuck around if the game was so punishing.

[Gliktch]

The reason some cite auto-explore features as a weakness is because it encourages boring dungeon design. If a 'feature' is so boring you can and should automate it then doesn't that say something about the feature itself? (feature in this case being map exploration) Auto-explore is a nice way to patch up how boring and tedious dungeon exploration can be but it is a patch. If something is so lame and requires so little decision making that I'm better off having my computer do it for me then what's the point of it? I sit down to play to be entertained, challenged, and pass the time, not watch my computer run through a rat maze for me.

More puzzles, more vaults, more interesting dungeon design. These all sound like more engaging options to me. When I play I want to be engaged.

Tediousness from dungeon running is mainly not due to the design of the dungeon. Since there are persistent dungeons the most optimal strategy is to explore every nook and cranny of the dungeon. In the end you inevitable start squinting at the minimap trying to see if you have missed something and likely travel a great back and forth to squeeze out the last black squares.

Something that I very automatic is not very exciting. Simply repeatedly clicking or pressing numerous keys to go to an unknown area takes no skill and is just boring. Better to automate it. Cannot be fixed by better dungeon design.

Auto-explore of course stops the movement anything interesting is discovered so it in no way mean an automatic bot. It just takes away one of the most boring elements of the game, transporting oneself until something interesting happens.

Auto-explore seems to fit right into the spirit of Tome. More fighting quality time, less tedious repetitive time wasting dealing with tasks that take no skill.

How about once you've explored/uncovered (meaning sighted, via LoS or magically, not necessarily traversed) at least 90% (95%?) of the *accessible* squares on a level, you can activate the Orb and ask Elisa to kindly 'scry out' the remainder of the map, including all inaccessible squares, and give you either a quantitative statement about remaining mobs/loot (e.g, "Almost there! You only missed 2 enemies and 3 items - well done!") or qualitative (e.g, [artifact or other very good item missed] = "Ooooh, I sense treasure! :D"; [0 enemies left] = "This place is safe, no doubt about it!"; [3 enemies left] = "Phew, you've sure done a great job, but don't quit just yet!"; [boss left] = "OMG I THINK IT SAW ME :((( *severs connection*" lol..)

Scried, accessible parts of levels can then be highlited as such on the minimap, making it easy to clicktravel to them if you *really* want to be comprehensive. On a related note, it would be nice if you could clickdrag the minimap.

On an unrelated (but on topic) note:

Occam's Razor suggests the identification abilities should just be removed.

I disagree that the current implementation of identification is a problem, in fact I would support a move to having to pick up regular items to identify them instead of just walking onto them... Or perhaps making this the case for items with purple egos, so you get (as others have mentioned) that little thrill knowing that you've potentially got something quite nice in the next click/keypress

So you would see:

There is an item here: ? shiny copper ring
Grey picks up: ? treant's copper ring of life

Maybe it's silly but I guess I'm curious what other people think about this idea?

Edit: Elisa's scrying may work 'through' you in such a way that means it can be enhanced by your magic or willpower, or by some other talent/stat.. not sure exactly how that could work, but regardless of stats, perhaps if you have truly cleared a level of *all* monsters, she will feel safe enough to reach out through your link with her mind and give you an identified list of all items remaining in that zone.

[Grey]

Having to pick up items to identify them is not synergistic with the easy transmogrifying of piles of items on the ground.

[Gliktch]

Having to pick up items to identify them is not synergistic with the easy transmogrifying of piles of items on the ground.

I wasn't aware the transmog thing worked for things on the ground (some kinda mystical Hoover huh? ) but are you saying it doesn't have a confirmation prompt for artifacts that could be used for any unidentified item as well?

If it wasn't for the fact that I'm loving taking my time and exploring everything that ToME has to offer at a leisurely place, I'd blast ahead (e.g, in exploration mode or cheating) to get an idea of the late game too so I could be more knowledgeable in my feedback.. but I guess I'll stay an enthusiastic semi-newbie for a little longer

Any feedback from yourself or other ToME veterans on the other suggestions?

[Grey]

I have no problems with exploration at the moment thanks to mouse + minimap. My only issue with your suggestion is one of thematic consistency. Also from a gameplay perspective it's best to just have it happen automatically (after 90% of map cleared rest becomes visible), but again it doesn't fit in with the feel of the game.

The transmo chest can be hotkeyed and used when standing above a pile of items. You then get the option to transmogrify all or one by one. For artifacts I usually pick up the artifact and transmog what's left on the ground, before then iding the artifact and deciding if I want to keep it or not. If more common items aren't ided then the whole thing becomes even more tedious, and all for little to no gameplay benefit.

[jotwebe]

I don't see autoexplore (maybe it should get it's own thread?) as a patch on bad level design, but simply a better interface than movement by keypad (or roguelikes) or even by mouse. At least in some situations.

Also I don't quite share Grey's enthusiams for vaults: I usually do them for the xp/loot, but I don't find 'em much more enjoyable than regular play. Mostly it's "open next door, fight a new monster," or "whoa big room with lotsa baddies and traps". In contrast, a layout like trollmire or the hidden compound have tends to produce the most interesting situations (the latter suffers a bit from a lack of variety in opponents).

Anyway, back to my point: autoexplore is not a band-aid for boring content, but an excellent innovation for the interface. Better levels will still be more accessible and fun with autoexplore. The arguments against it in fact remind me a bit of the arguments against pocket calculators - they're just a patch for bad algebra skills, after all.

[bricks]

Heh, Trollmire and the Hidden Compound strike me as the least interesting maps. Both have a tendency to target-pass halfway across the map, and both are pretty easy (Hidden Compound moreso than Trollmire, to be honest). Running backwards until I find a choke-point and then bumping everything to death is awfully straightforward. Eruan is more interesting; it also has a much greater tendency to spawn fun vaults, and the enemies that can show up are very rare in other locations.

If someone programmed an auto-explore feature, DG would probably implement it.

[Parcae]

I think that one point about the auto-explore feature in Crawl is that empty time is always wasted time, but empty space is not always wasted space. In other words, if you're making the player waste keypresses, that's a problem. But there can be excellent design reasons to have an empty area, such as the need to provide space so that the player can make a tactical retreat and otherwise make use of the terrain. By using auto-explore, you have the best of both worlds - the player never has to deal with boring exploration of vacant ground, but still has the vacant ground if she needs it for an end-run around a boss, a clear space to rest after retreating, etc.

[yufra]

unlocking
By playing the game you gradually unlock certain classes.

Pro: Keeps you buzy?
Problem: I know there are a lot of people out there who want to play mages as their first characters, but are unable to do so due to the unlock system. Oddly, summoners are the first to unlock.
Problem 2: Many unlocks are very difficult to unlock, and are only unlocked by the most dedicated players.

I agree, it does take dedication and skill to unlock every class/race/etc. I would prefer a different solution, though: each week have a different unlock be active for everyone. There would an associated news feed letting people know what "flavor" this week is. Having "flavor" weeks would give people a taste of the various unlocks, and potentially encourage more play. Thoughts?

[lukep]

I would prefer a different solution, though: each week have a different unlock be active for everyone. There would an associated news feed letting people know what "flavor" this week is. Having "flavor" weeks would give people a taste of the various unlocks, and potentially encourage more play. Thoughts?

I like the concept, but I'm worried that players will get to like a class, then the week will end, they will lose access, and become discouraged. Alternatively, if the flavour week unlocks are persistent, it would take all of the challenge out of gaining classes. The hybrid that I suggest is to have a way for the flavour week unlocks to transfer to permanence, perhaps reaching lvl 15-20 to show that you have a decent grasp of the class (note, I don't know what the progress mark should be, about 2-4 days of moderate play is right IMO).

[yufra]

I would prefer a different solution, though: each week have a different unlock be active for everyone. There would an associated news feed letting people know what "flavor" this week is. Having "flavor" weeks would give people a taste of the various unlocks, and potentially encourage more play. Thoughts?

I like the concept, but I'm worried that players will get to like a class, then the week will end, they will lose access, and become discouraged. Alternatively, if the flavour week unlocks are persistent, it would take all of the challenge out of gaining classes. The hybrid that I suggest is to have a way for the flavour week unlocks to transfer to permanence, perhaps reaching lvl 15-20 to show that you have a decent grasp of the class (note, I don't know what the progress mark should be, about 2-4 days of moderate play is right IMO).

I personally think it would yield encouragement, not discouragement, but others should weigh in on that. Alternatively, what if getting to lvl X only extended the unlock for another week? That way there is still only one way to permanently unlock something, but avoids the discouragement.

EDIT: And bricks suggestion below is interesting, too. "Flavor" weeks would also promote concentrated gameplay, though, with more people trying a specific unlock out at the same time. That would probably increase communication and the community feeling.

[bricks]

I think a better solution is to implement alternative unlock conditions for each class/race, one "story" and one "grind." For example, killing Vor (that's the mage orc, right?) unlocks Wildfire/Ice (only one, randomly picked, like the Master and the Undead races). Killing 1000 Ghouls unlocks Ghoul as a playable race; killing 1000 Skeletons unlocks Skeleton as a playable race. Escorts could be worked into alternative unlocks for Anorithil/Sun Paladin. And so on. Things that would occur naturally as one plays, and would take longer than a typical unlock run, but still makes all of the classes/races eventually playable so long as the player is persistent.

As far as Archmages go; I don't think the unlock could be much easier, and I do think it's a good class to keep locked. The starting zone is very tricky and the class itself requires a particular mindset and familiarity with ToME's gameplay.

[Zonk]

(sorry if this comes off wrong but...I really don't like unlocks)

I would prefer a different solution, though: each week have a different unlock be active for everyone. There would an associated news feed letting people know what "flavor" this week is. Having "flavor" weeks would give people a taste of the various unlocks, and potentially encourage more play. Thoughts?

Please...no. A single player game(effectively)where which week it is affects what you can play, at least for newer players? Sorry, but I think that's a pretty bad idea.
Yes, lots of people playing a certain class at the same time is interesting, but that can be done without resorting to such incentives - in the past I remember some threads which thread to do just that, encouraging people to play a specific class and give feedback.

Also... 'extending' unlocks for reaching a certain level? A race against real time to play a certain class? You don't see how that would be problematic for people who don't have a lot of time?

If you want to encourage people to unlock things 'properly', why not have a game mode where everything is unlocked but your character is not registered online?
(How is that different from playing offline and cheating? Well, it would be official and save some player time dealing with files)

I think a better solution is to implement alternative unlock conditions for each class/race, one "story" and one "grind." For example, killing Vor (that's the mage orc, right?) unlocks Wildfire/Ice (only one, randomly picked, like the Master and the Undead races

I have thought for a long time that this would be a better way to handle them, yes.

Not being a fan of unlocks, I'd prefer if we just didn't have them, but that battle was lost a long time ago...having double ways to unlock would be more generous, at least.
I'm baffled by how many people seem to be in favour of it while also saying that ToME tries to move away from 'grinding'. How is doing 1 million fire, cold...damage across characters just to unlock something NOT grindy?

As far as Archmages go; I don't think the unlock could be much easier, and I do think it's a good class to keep locked. The starting zone is very tricky and the class itself requires a particular mindset and familiarity with ToME's gameplay.

Why do people keep assuming that new players will be mostly clueless?
Hell, if I was someone who had never touched ToME and read that some classes are too 'complicated' for me to even attempt playing them, I could be either somwehat offended or assume the class is something RIDICOLOUSLY complex...it's not. Archmages have lots of interesting talents, but I don't see how they are particularly complex. Compare their resource management and mechanics to say, Anorithils or Cursed.

By the way, do keep in mind that the tutorials are getting revamped, meaning that people might start playing knowing much more about mechanics. Also, the Archmage starting zone's optional(though I think the reward is pretty nice).

By playing the game you gradually unlock certain classes.

Pro: Keeps you buzy?

Like, dunno, playing and trying the classes you want without any restriction?

[lukep]

I think a better solution is to implement alternative unlock conditions for each class/race, one "story" and one "grind." For example, killing Vor (that's the mage orc, right?) unlocks Wildfire/Ice (only one, randomly picked, like the Master and the Undead races). Killing 1000 Ghouls unlocks Ghoul as a playable race; killing 1000 Skeletons unlocks Skeleton as a playable race. Escorts could be worked into alternative unlocks for Anorithil/Sun Paladin. And so on. Things that would occur naturally as one plays, and would take longer than a typical unlock run, but still makes all of the classes/races eventually playable so long as the player is persistent.

As far as Archmages go; I don't think the unlock could be much easier, and I do think it's a good class to keep locked. The starting zone is very tricky and the class itself requires a particular mindset and familiarity with ToME's gameplay.

Very good idea, I was going to elaborate more here, but it got too far from the OP, so I started a new thread here. (covers multiple options to unlock, not class-of-the-week)

Also... 'extending' unlocks for reaching a certain level? A race against real time to play a certain class? You don't see how that would be problematic for people who don't have a lot of time?

My thought was to lock new character creation, but not playing characters that are already made, but I now realize that this would be easy to circumvent (create 100 chars) and still not prevent the race against time, just reduce it. I've changed my opinion to multiple unlocks being the best solution.