Renaming Fighters

[Frumple]

Knight and cavalier both imply something a bit more than fighters are -- noble, in the first case, and mounted, in the second

Of the names that have been suggested, Stalwart appeals to me the most... but really, I think just a nice description change would fix most of the issues. If someone doesn't bother to read it and goes in expecting swing-batter-swing, it's their own problem, heh.

[Rectifier]

Random List of names:
Chevalier - french
Duelist - let's settle our differences by playing a children's card game!
Gladiator - derp russel crowe
Legionnaire - french
Landsknecht - german

Also in case you like latin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ro ... ator_types

There might be some interesting prestige class names from D&D as well.
A couple d&d names I skimmed for:
Sentinel
Warmaster
Weapon Master
Justicar-Justiciar
Kensai
Ronin
Warchief
Crusader
Slayer
Judicator
Zealot
Enforcer
Warlord

There don't seem to be many "just plain warrior" names out there...

[Silvermoon]

>Chevalier - french

That's actually what I meant to post. I'm just an idiot.

[Nagyhal]

Grey, can we see these conversations in which people have become baffled and dismayed with ToME by their beginning experience with the Fighter?

What you have said makes me worry- both for ToME and for the human populace at large. Are they failing to grasp the concept of cooldowned abilities completely?

How are they even building these things?

What I can add that might be useful: I myself chose a fighter as the first character to play. Cooldowns I loved immediately, taking them as a sign that modern roguelikes had come up to speed with RPGs, but Stamina took a while to get used to- the fact there was no overt recovery mechanism aside from torturously waiting for it to refill. I worried that sitting around was going to get me squished by a patrol, or was something else dire going to occur if I lay around doing nothing for 100s of turns after any sizeable fight? So I held back on a few abilities. Seems strange looking back on this, I'll grant, but I think it was set off by how monsters aggro strangely in the Trollmire, seeming to come out from nowhere without provocation, when really they (bear-admiring snakes) have seen something (bear) that's seen you.

Of course, this is something that would have been averted by playing a tutorial, maybe a tutorial that is more enticing than the ones that exist. And just as there has been a call for more tutorials! Worth repeating even if we do change the Fighter's name.

The other thing is- these people are new to this game, which... is a roguelike. Why are they getting bored bumping things to death instead of dying pitifully themselves at L1 and trying again with a new class?

Anyway, +1 for Soldier and the description. It implies a tactical mindset and the variety of approaches that's possible with their unlockable trees.

Or... If you make them into Defenders, Guardians or Knights, how about flavouring them as the stalwart royal guard of Last Hope?

[Aquillion]

What I can add that might be useful: I myself chose a fighter as the first character to play. Cooldowns I loved immediately, taking them as a sign that modern roguelikes had come up to speed with RPGs, but Stamina took a while to get used to- the fact there was no overt recovery mechanism aside from torturously waiting for it to refill. I worried that sitting around was going to get me squished by a patrol, or was something else dire going to occur if I lay around doing nothing for 100s of turns after any sizeable fight? So I held back on a few abilities. Seems strange looking back on this, I'll grant, but I think it was set off by how monsters aggro strangely in the Trollmire, seeming to come out from nowhere without provocation, when really they (bear-admiring snakes) have seen something (bear) that's seen you.

Of course, this is something that would have been averted by playing a tutorial, maybe a tutorial that is more enticing than the ones that exist. And just as there has been a call for more tutorials! Worth repeating even if we do change the Fighter's name.

It sounds to me like it's another argument for bumping the Trollmire out of its position as a starting dungeon. The new path makes it a lot better, but at heart its layout is just very atypical of what ToME is, and I think it gives people the wrong impression. The path also can't help with the core problem, which is that the trollmire's layout ultimately isn't very fun -- does anyone actually enjoy exploring it? At all?

Part of the fun of a roguelike is the interesting random environment, and for the most part the Trollmire just feels like a bunch of random blocks -- yeah, there's lakes, and it's sort-of not random, but it's random enough to destroy any sense that you can use the layout to your advantage.

As an optional side-area, like the Spellblaze, where players are challenged by the unusual layout? That's fine. As the default starting area for what's probably the first race most players are going to use? It's bad..

[kazak 2]

I actually kind of like Defender. To me it sounds like a callback to the defender ego from Angband, which kind of fits conceptually, as defender weapons generally made you more impervious to stuff. It also draws a more obvious contrast to berserkers on its face:

What do berserkers do? They go berserk, attack recklessly.

What do defenders do? They...well...defend, focus on defense, act more careful than reckless.

What about fighters? Well....hmmm....

The word "fighter" doesn't at all make me think of shields and heavy armor, so I'm not sure how that's better. Guardian's okay. Could also go with Shield Warden, which also has the benefit of being less obtuse.

That's all assuming a change is warranted, of course.

[Sradac]

guardian is what I was going to go with, but its been mentioned at least a few times.

Guardians are the elite protectors of their order. Launching themselves headlong into battle shield first, they are dedicated to take the blows before they could get anywheres near their allies. Guardians are masters of defense, but this does not mean they lack offensive capabilites. blah blah blah.

[jotwebe]

Dunno.

Both Guardian and Defender imply something specific that is guarded/defended. Well, Defender not so much, but it sounds plain silly. Fighter, on the other hand, is a clearly-understood RPG term

It's true that the class description doesn't mention the importance of techniques:

"A Fighter specializes in weapon and shield combat, rarely leaving the cover of her many protective techniques.",
"A good Fighter is able to withstand terrible attacks from all sides, protected by her shield, and when the time comes lash out at her foes with incredible strength."

Here's a possible new description:

"A Fighter specializes in weapon and shield combat, sacrificing raw power for durability and tactical flexibility.",
"A good Fighter is able to weather terrible attacks from all sides under the cover of her shield, only to lash out with devastating techniques when the time is right."

Oh, and if the name gets changed, my vote would be for Soldier...

[Grey]

Grey, can we see these conversations in which people have become baffled and dismayed with ToME by their beginning experience with the Fighter?

What you have said makes me worry- both for ToME and for the human populace at large. Are they failing to grasp the concept of cooldowned abilities completely?

Here's an example:
http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comm ... like_this/

It could be the guy had a terrible build, or that he was in too high a level area but had enough defence to survive, or that he encountered the negative health bug. Still, he makes a clear and salient point - he expected Fighters to be strong and kill things easily. Ultimately he'd have been a lot happier with a Berserker I imagine.

I've seen similar things elsewhere with people not adjusting to the idea of ToME4 relying on activated skills and sustains etc. The Fighter is the worst class for this, as people traditionally expect a Fighter to be an easy strong class to play. In ToME4 the class is more nuanced, and the name of the class just doesn't give that away. It's actually not a good introduction class for the game (which is why more tutorials would be good).

[Aquillion]

You know, with what you're saying, it's almost tempting to argue that Fighter should be a locked class -- easy to unlock (like mages), but still locked.

[bricks]

Just moving Berserker to spot #1 would clue in a lot of new players that they should try that class, and not Fighters.

[Grey]

You know, with what you're saying, it's almost tempting to argue that Fighter should be a locked class -- easy to unlock (like mages), but still locked.

No more locked classes please :( We have too many locked already.

[Aquillion]

I doubt it. 'Fighter' does have very strong connotations as the simplest, most basic melee class.

[Canderel]

It seems to me that the real issue is *not* the name. But the fact that they don't do enough damage early on.

My suggestion is to let characters who can, start with Steel weapons instead of iron (problem is you first get your equipment, then the lvl-up screen). That guy's Halfling Fighter was not the strongest fighter race (one could Colour the "recommended" classes for a race yellow or bold).

The game is generally most dangerous at lvls 1 - 15. *This* i believe is the actual problem. After that one tends to hit your stride, then it becomes pretty dangerous only in a couple of places (Derth being one of them)...

[Aquillion]

My suggestion is to let characters who can, start with Steel weapons instead of iron (problem is you first get your equipment, then the lvl-up screen). That guy's Halfling Fighter was not the strongest fighter race (one could Colour the "recommended" classes for a race yellow or bold).

Though, some race combinations are powerful for non-obvious reasons that might make them unsuitable for a beginner. Eg. Shalore Berserkers are incredibly powerful, but it takes a while to show itself, and you have to know things like the importance of bloodlust + criticals and how to exploit Timeless by stacking a bunch of buffs. And dwarves in general might be a bad start for many players because of their odd intro, even given its advantages (all else aside, it would give them an odd view of the game to start with a squadmate -- honestly, I kinda think dwarves should be locked, too, though the most logical unlock condition -- entering Reknor -- might be a bit too hard. Maybe just accumulating a certain low amount of gold could do it, even as low as 100 or 200 gold... mainly, we want to ensure that the very first character someone makes isn't a dwarf.