shooting arrows <> shooting fireballs

[Altefcat]

If you shoot an arrow through a monster (by targeting behind the monster), the monster is never hit; but if you shoot with magic, the monster is hit. That's discrimination!

[Sradac]

what spell are you using?

Some spells target location or are beams and are not bolts. try casting a level 1 flame or manathrust through a target and see what happens.

[greycat]

I've reported this before. It's definitely something odd (broken) about physical projectiles.

(Edit: or at least there was definitely something broken about them back in December when I reported it. I haven't played an archer/slinger since then, so I can't confirm that it's still acting this way.)

[yufra]

There are different types of targeting, as Sradac alluded to. All physical projectiles (bow/sling) are of the "bolt" type, which means they hit the first thing in their path. There is also a "beam" type that hits everything in its path and a "hit" type that simply hits the target without traversing the space between. These differences are intentional and not a bug, but if you find a spell that you think should be looked at more closely feel free post it in the Ideas sub-forum.

[Aoi]

Huh. I was curious about this, not having tried an archer since b13ish, but testing it with a slinger, the projectile certainly does act like a bolt, which is certainly what I expected?

Edit: Cross that, I think I noticed what's being referred to by the OP: There DOES seem to have a kind of weird aiming thing where projectiles aren't hitting when the aim is far past them, as a side effect of trying to get the flight path through a narrow gap or around a corner.

[yufra]

Remember that projectiles take time to travel. Are you sure you are not seeing the projectile reach the NPCs location after the NPC has moved out of that tile?

[Aoi]

I'm going to try it under varying circumstances, but the in previously mentioned situation, I'm pretty sure it didn't move. It stayed in the same spot for 5-6 shots.

Edit: Can't seem to reproduce it. May be related to user-error, or something specific about archers that I'm not accustomed to.

[greycat]

This still happening. Right now. In beta 18. I started an Archer just to test it. The bug I described a month ago is still happening.

I don't know how to make this any clearer than I already have, but it seems people are NOT UNDERSTANDING it, so I guess I have to try again.

Here is a monster. It is a stationary monster. It does not move. It does not dodge. It does not change position:



Here is me pressing the (1) key to aim at the monster:



As you can see, I can't shoot the monster by simply pressing (1) (Enter). Because the path goes through a tree. If I press (1) (Enter) the game says "Snipes shoots!" and nothing else. Actually, it says "Snipes shoots!" as soon as I press the (1) key, before I press (Enter).

Now here is me aiming JUST PAST THE - MONSTER:



I did this by pressing (1) (Shift-Up). The purpose of doing this is to cause the arrow's path to go through the MONSTER and not through the TREE.

When I press (1) (Shift-Up) (Enter), the game also says "Snipes shoots!". And that's all it says. It does not say "Snipes shoots! You missed, you big oaf! You aren't good enough to hit a plant!"

This is not just a momentary glitch. It's not "Oh, like, you missed, but I didn't bother telling you that, and if you try again, you might hit." I've done this MANY MANY TIMES. In a row. Over and over. There is no hit message. There is no miss message. The arrow NEVER GETS THERE.

All physical projectiles (bow/sling) are of the "bolt" type, which means they hit the first thing in their path.

Well, it is NOT doing this.

[greycat]

Now here's the other half. I made an Archmage. Here's the Archmage with a poison ivy:



It's EXACTLY the same setup as the Archer. The Archmage has the Flame talent at level 1. "Effective talent level: 1.3" is what it says in the popup. No points invested in it. It's not a beam. It's a bolt, right?



Here's me aiming just PAST the monster by pressing (1) for Flame, and then (Shift-Down) to move the target indicator one square. It's EXACTLY the same as the Archer.

Want to guess what happened?

"Zaps hits poison ivy for 31.13 fire damage."
"Poison ivy is on fire!"

Is this clear enough yet?

[TheDevilWearsPravda]

I'll second greycat's report. Any bolt spell will hit the first target in its path, while arrows will only hit if the target is right under your cursor. Makes archers much worse than casters if they lack the ability to 'bend' their attacks around obstacles.

[yufra]

Thanks for the clear explanation greycat, that was very useful. I know exactly what the problem is now, and will do my best to explain what is happening first. You noted that you see the "Snipes shoots!" message before you actually target, and there is the inherent problem. Currently archery REQUIRES that you select an actor as a target, and refuses to shoot otherwise. It shouldn't use energy when you select an invalid target (is that what you observe?). I'll think about how to fix this and chat with DG about it, but it is now being worked on. Cheers.

[Grey]

So you can't try to shoot at invisible and stealthed enemies?

[PowerWyrm]

Using a location past a monster to target an out of LOS monster is itself a bug and should be fixed.

###A
B

B cannot see A, B cannot target A.

###XA
B

B can see A, B can target A... but the path should NEVER include spot X because X is out of LOS.

###XA
B**Y

B targets A, the path includes spot Y which is in LOS.

[greycat]

Using a location past a monster to target an out of LOS monster is itself a bug and should be fixed.

###A
B

B cannot see A, B cannot target A.

That's not true. B can see A just fine. You're describing the same thing I showed in this picture:



"B cannot target A" only applies to arrows or naive targeting. B can target A using spells and shift-direction (or mouse) targeting.

(Or maybe you meant "B should not be able to target A", which would nerf spells. I would not support such a nerf.)

A, however, cannot see B. And cannot target B, no matter how carefully the cursor is placed.

[yufra]

So you can't try to shoot at invisible and stealthed enemies?

No, you can definitely shoot invisible/stealthed enemies because the check is if an actor is in the targeted tile, not if the player can see that actor. I personally think you should be able to select any tile (like targeting lightning) and shoot along that trajectory, but I have to see how the current code has to be modified to handle this.