Fallen Black Sun [1.7 b5]

[Pisastrish]

Not exactly a bug, but the black sun is a famous nazi symbol, this should be renamed.

[darkgod]

Oh seriousfuckinly .. nazis ruin everything :/

[Delmuir]

It wasn't exactly a Nazi symbol, and certainly not a famous one. It was a commissioned piece of artwork in ONE castle in Germany and it was unnamed. It's association is more modern.

It was also the name of a crime syndicate in the Star Wars universe and a private equity firm in telecommunications.

Unless the actual visual image is being used, which it isn't, then the MERE words "black sun" can hardly be expected to restricted from use forever simply because of an association with the Nazis. There are virtually no symbols or images that aren't tainted with some historical crime. Worse, if that principle were consistently applied, then terrible people could destroy every artistic endeavor by merely adopting that imagery as their own, thus impelling the creator to change it endlessly. What if, for example, neo-nazis decided to adopt imagery associated with Star Trek or Pokemon and so on? It quite literally gives the worst people editorial power over everyone else's creations. That's a terrible principle.

And finally, the image was commissioned by Himmler but never used symbolically, nor is there any evidence that it had any particular meaning or importance, and the name "black sun" was not used by him or the Nazis. It wasn't even coined as a term until a 1991 novel about the Nazis and the occult. Thus, again, unless that specific image is being used here (and even it was only adopted more recently by neo-nazis), this critique is highly dubious and unworkable as a principle.

[Pisastrish]

My critique is that there are lots of names that have no association with nazis, and the name of one random talent tree doesn’t actually matter, so why not use something else. I am talking about a single tree in tome, not saying “restricted forever” from any use lol.

[Pisastrish]

Also the fact that it is *currently* used by neo-nazi’s and isn’t just historical seems like an argument in favor of changing the name.

[Delmuir]

Okay, okay...

I accept that the pairing of the image and the words would evoke modern usage by a small group of degenerates today (not a lot of usage but still...). Fair enough.

However, the associated image ISN'T being used. It's literally just two common words. Are we to not use ANY combination of words used by idiots? That connection is so tenuous as to be absurd. Maybe you should contact Disney about Star Wars or that equity firm.

The principle you are applying is utterly unsustainable and you predicated it on a factual error (that it was a "famous Nazi symbol" when it's literally none of those things). Your judgement is clearly suspect. Have some humility and acknowledge that you overreacted to it. It happens but trying to apply your principle will make it nearly impossible to do anything creative.

This is absurd.

But, for the record, if the man in charge wants to change it in order to avoid the fuss, I understand. My objection is to the reasoning and principle that you've applied. It won't end here and it'll grow endlessly more ridiculous. That is what I object to.

[istur89]

Agreed. No one, unless they're strongly politicized one way or the other and is specifically looking to get offended is going to associate the words "Black Sun" to nazis in the context of a fallen Sun Paladin, and restricting one's own expression based on such a frivolous thing seems just silly worrying of the Hitler ate sugar variety. Or to give a similar example in the context of this game, it's like someone asked the name of Anorithil talent "Corona" to be changed in order to be considerate to COVID-19 victims. It's just conceding defeat and letting said groups or phenomena have exclusive rights over the words.

A disambiguation page for many uses of the words "Black Sun", for those interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun

[darkgod]

I don't like changing it, but it reeks of the old breeding pits drama and I do not want to have to relive that. Came close to making me quit dev and I wasn't well for a while.
Silly or not I'll change it and be done. End of discussion (sorry if this feels a little harsh, it's not meant to but ... yeah I can't relive that)

[Agrimley]

Silly or not I'll change it and be done.

Fair enough. You can do away with potential political overtones while keeping the motif, though:

• Obsidian Sun;
• Dying Sun;
• Eclipsed Sun;
• Nocturnal Sun...

[smithfield]

Why would you want to make any concessions to someone who is not just implying
but directly stating that you are a N--- sympathizer? What kind of person does
that? What kind of arrogance does that require?

No one over the age of 30 takes any thing like this seriously. One way or the
other. The only people that respond to this sort of thing are sophmoric morons
who are trying to impress some indoctrinaire that has shown up in their lives
through school or the internet and is using their naivety to get some jollies.

Not your responsibility.

Take a few deep breaths. Then, Ban him. Delete the thread. Ban him from the
discord channel if necessary. Give back any money if you feel it. Or don't.

[Delmuir]

The issue is done. No more comments are necessary.

Note what DarkGod said... this crap ruins the fun of doing this so let it die.

[Fela]

Funnily, a black sun would astronomically probably be a white dwarf. Go figure

[GlassGo]

I don't like changing it, but it reeks of the old breeding pits drama and I do not want to have to relive that. Came close to making me quit dev and I wasn't well for a while.

I'm really sorry. Seriously.

But before you do something, rememeber the legacy - Hitlear wore trousers and was vegetarian. Also, television was invented by Nazi, just as concept of tv-shows.
We need to refuse of so much...