[1.2.3] Odd Cave Troll in Old Woods

[Dracos]

So on Old Forest 3 on normal, I ran into a very unexpected sighting, a non-rare/non-elite/non-boss level 39 Cave Troll. Possibly accompanied by some similar leveled guys (In fact, certainly at least one, since the thundrer I mind dominated had 900+ hp), but a good 20+ levels above where everything else was in that dungeon (including the character) and past where I thought the dungeon level cap was.

The map in question was also a variant of old forest 3 I haven't seen before, with just one large castle filling the entire map. Possibly the entire thing is a vault. At least the doors the troll was standing in front of are vault doors, but they haven't been opened, so a non-standard level monster shouldn't have gotten outside. I suspect that's what actually happened: The vault was spawned with a handful of monsters placed outside of it.

[Dracos]

Opening the door of doom, yeah, the vault in question (the entire map) is full of level 40 monsters.

[Dracos]

Gotta admit as well, it's kind of brutal to have a giant vault like that spawn, be full of level 40 guys...and tier 1-2 items throughout. Seems weird that at least the gear inside isn't matched appropriately to the guards around it.

[Zeyphor]

if its not obvious enough this is working as intended

[Dracos]

It's intended that the Vault enemies are outside of the vault on the castle map? *blinks*

That...doesn't match with every other vault I've encountered in the game so far in multiple runs.

[HousePet]

Monster pits don't have walls either.

Rares, which are frequently more dangerous than a high level troll, also spawn outside of vaults.

You can handle it.

[Dracos]

It was handled after one surprise death, but it still seems poor setup versus most of ToME which is really good on the communication front.

Rares, Uniques, Bosses all have special indicators that let you know they're more dangerous than normal. A nice trait of the game. Sure, they can be really dangerous sometimes, but they're very visibly communicated as abnormal threats.

Monster pits (which I assume you mean those rooms full to the brim with monsters) haven't noticeably contained things significantly outside of the average level for the area. Also, generally they stay in the room until opened, which always looks a bit silly, but keeps an active 'you opened the door, and SURPRISE, horde of monsters' (which is cool). There's also nothing stopping you from leaving those until Escorts are dealt with and the area around them is cleared up before opening doors (if you just hit auto-explore, it takes this behavior by default). I actually can't recall encountering one that wasn't surrounded by walls? I guess they exist somewhere. Maybe I guess some of the Orc Pride open areas full of monsters is that? Though that's an almost end game zone that's very clear it's a deathmarch from the the entry way on.

Vaults which can easily contain things of 20-200% percent level (including elites, rares, and uniques) all have nice warning blocks that you click through, training newer players that they're potentially high risk/high reward scenarios (and most of them are very good along those lines. Having to deal with multiple level 50 elite forge-demons in Dreadfall was a hell of a fight for another character). Anyone that opens them knows what they're getting into.

Old forest is very easily the second or third dungeon a new player might encounter. Having a giant vault there that contains things they're seriously unlikely to win against is one thing, and totally in the spirit of ToME that some things are optional or to be run away from, especially since it has the usual nice warning on the front gate. Having normal enemies wandering outside of it in groups that are stronger than the current boss tier is by virtue of having 20-30 levels on them with no markers seems not at all to match.

I wouldn't like it, but I'd actually have had less concern had it been a group of level 40 rares that camp outside the vault, since at least those indicate clearly from a distance. Do you really scan every normal enemy checking if 'oh no, that one happens to be 20 levels over the boss of the area, I need to treat this as a high risk situation.'? I didn't even realize a group of dangerous enemies were approaching until they'd shrugged off several spells and I'd given up most of the distance game with an escort behind me preventing reasonable slow retreat.

I'd still think it's wrong, not matching with the rest of ToME's design overall. It's a good thing that generally you can take a glance at the first and second normal enemy in a dungeon and know without checking that the next 50 are going to be about the same level (give or take 3) and get a quick read. It's good that ToME gives you those 'hey this is risky' messages when entering a dangerous zone or 'hey this is a cakewalk' (which it did for old forest since 20 is pretty overleveled for it).

One of ToME's strengths is its communication of risk, and I don't think "It can be handled" is a good answer to a solid mismatch in that communication.

Anyhow, different perspectives and I guess not a bug, just poor design.