So I've been playing this game for the past couple months and I can't seem to get past the Teir 2 Dungeons. I've played mostly as an Archer, but am currently trying out Alchemist. I keep reading that this game has great tactical combat, but I don't see it. Either I stand and fight or die as I run away. In nearly all of my deaths, I've either underestimated my ability to win, or had no chance at escaping a deadly situation.
I've done a bit of reading on the Wiki and here on the forums, but I just don't seem to be grokking this game. Is an Archer that hard of a class to play? Is there another class that could provide me with learning opportunities rather than (what feel like) a predestined death? I've been playing the game on Normal Adventurer; tried Exploration mode once and it was just too boring.
I guess what I'm looking for is some advice on how to understand my deaths so I can learn what I'm doing wrong or at least know (with enough time to escape) that I won't win a fight. Making it to level 15 without understanding what it takes to get further is starting to become frustrating/boring.
How do I Not Die?
Moderator: Moderator
Re: How do I Not Die?
It'd help if you listed a few of the deaths you had, and maybe your character sheet. There's a lot of tips we can give, but that info will let us be more specific.
Re: How do I Not Die?
Here's my characters: http://te4.org/user/138894/characters
Besides dumb mistakes, I generally find myself getting in over my head. I'd like to have a better understanding of how to know that with enough time to escape.
Besides dumb mistakes, I generally find myself getting in over my head. I'd like to have a better understanding of how to know that with enough time to escape.
Re: How do I Not Die?
well, kinda depends on which class... and what race. except for arena, i'd do the T1 dungeons first. generally dont pull too many things, and realize some 'help' buttons take time to use.
Re: How do I Not Die?
Archers aren't a forgiving class.
If you want a ranged class I'd go archmage. For melee a berserker.
If you want a ranged class I'd go archmage. For melee a berserker.
Re: How do I Not Die?
I'd agree that Archers are pretty low tier as ranged classes go, with their lack of defence. Alchemists are aren't great either, so I'd second the advice to play Berserker (for melee) or Archmage (for ranged). My earliest wins were with those classes so they work well, and are also considered the top tier classes in terms of power.
Looking at your more recent deaths:
- Weirdling Beast is one of the harder bosses, so no surprise you died there. Playing one of the stronger classes listed above will help though.
- Looks like you were attacked by a stealthed rare, judging by the 'something' hits you for high damage. You got hit several times so I presume you were standing and fighting rather than fleeing. If your hp starts dropping rapidly, you should've immediately fled.
- Another couple of deaths seemed to be from wandering adventurer parties. You should never engage these unless you're experienced and on a powerful character. There's a mod that lets you skip them which I'd recommend.
- Another was from a Bringer of Doom randboss. Those are kinda scary so you shouldn't touch the orbs that spawn them unless you're prepared.
So basically, always have a way to escape. Movement infusion, psychoportation torque, teleport rune (and a way to cleanse silence/confuse so you can actually use it). Always have a way to cleanse off status effects. Before engaging any tough mob, make sure you have an escape plan prepared and use it asap. I play on Nightmare, and if I'm not absolutely dominating whatever I'm fighting I'll pretty much immediately back off to recover and plan. Never slug it out in a fight where it looks to be close, get in a few good hits and flee, taking advantage of how most mobs don't regenerate or do so very slowly.
Looking at your more recent deaths:
- Weirdling Beast is one of the harder bosses, so no surprise you died there. Playing one of the stronger classes listed above will help though.
- Looks like you were attacked by a stealthed rare, judging by the 'something' hits you for high damage. You got hit several times so I presume you were standing and fighting rather than fleeing. If your hp starts dropping rapidly, you should've immediately fled.
- Another couple of deaths seemed to be from wandering adventurer parties. You should never engage these unless you're experienced and on a powerful character. There's a mod that lets you skip them which I'd recommend.
- Another was from a Bringer of Doom randboss. Those are kinda scary so you shouldn't touch the orbs that spawn them unless you're prepared.
So basically, always have a way to escape. Movement infusion, psychoportation torque, teleport rune (and a way to cleanse silence/confuse so you can actually use it). Always have a way to cleanse off status effects. Before engaging any tough mob, make sure you have an escape plan prepared and use it asap. I play on Nightmare, and if I'm not absolutely dominating whatever I'm fighting I'll pretty much immediately back off to recover and plan. Never slug it out in a fight where it looks to be close, get in a few good hits and flee, taking advantage of how most mobs don't regenerate or do so very slowly.
Re: How do I Not Die?
From what you described, it sounds like you may be lacking reliable escape skills. Also, you're probably not preemptively avoiding nasty effects like stuns and pins. A few quick tips:
1. If you don't have a teleport skill that can target out of line of sight, get either a torque of psychoportation or a teleport rune. Psychoportation is more powerful since it can be used even if you have effects like confusion, but it takes up your charm slot and (as far as I know) doesn't have the minimum range that teleport rune does, so you might get unlucky and get teleported in the same room.
Use your teleports liberally to get out of situations that seem potentially dangerous. Teleport might save you as a last ditch effort before you die next turn, but it's better to use it right away when things start going downhill. Many enemies don't have healing/regen, so you can even chip away their health by attacking, teleporting away, resting, and coming back to fight. Remember that most skills can fail or be disabled under some circumstances, and the longer you stay in a losing fight, the more likely it is that your skills will get disabled by a stunned/confused/pinned effect.
2. Make sure you have skills or item for avoiding/removing harmful effects. Look for items that give immunity to things like stun/freeze, confusion/daze, pinning, and disarm (if you rely on your weapon). Make sure you have a wild infusion that can remove physical and/or mental effects; during the early game, you might even want 1 wild (physical) and 1 wild (mental). If your class has skills for removing negative effects, get it and use it. Some classes will want to consider unlocking the Celestial/Light tree as a reward from an anorithil escort; in addition to handy heals and damage shields, this category has the Providence skill that removes one effect each turn for up to 7 turns.
Remove confusion effects as soon as possible with a wild (mental) infusion since it makes you add randomly and unable to use most spells that aren't instant-cast. This effect is bad news for anyone, but it's especially harmful to spellcasters.
3. Use a movement infusion. This is something that many new players probably don't take advantage of as much as they should. I only started using it to the full potential fairly recently, and I can tell you from experience that it makes a big difference. The obvious use of movement infusion is to run faster, either to get close to enemies or to run away. The less obvious use is to get immunity to stun/daze/pinning for several turns, and I consider this the more important use.
Stun and daze are particularly problematic because they disable some of your skills and keep all your skills from recharging. If you don't have a way to avoid or remove stun/daze, you're eventually going to get in a situation where your escape skills are disabled. Pinning is also problematic because it disables your movement infusion, so getting pinned can often lead to getting stunned/dazed. It's important to avoid that situation, so I recommend using your movement infusion preemptively, even if you don't need the increased speed. You can use teleport while pinned, and it's often a good idea so you can remove the effect at your leisure and reorganize before approaching the fight again.
If you're a ranged character, use your movement infusion when enemies come into melee range even if you're not going to run away. If you're a melee character, use it when you're close enough to a target to run up to them during the increased speed effect; this depends on speed rating of the infusion--for instance, a movement infusion with 500% increased speed should allow you to walk 6 tiles in 1 turn. This way, you'll have several turns of stun/daze/pinning immunity when you reach your target.
4. Be careful about your positioning. Use corners to your advantage, so you can look in a room and quickly escape behind cover if it's too dangerous. Retreat into 1-tile-wide pathways to fight enemies one at a time. Use skills like Track, Arcane Eye, or wand of clairvoyance to learn the locations of enemies before they see you. Try to use auto-explore or click-to-move, since they will stop you if you see an enemy or start taking damage. If you move with the keyboard, it's easy to start hitting the direction keys multiple times and accidentally lose turns when you get in a fight.
In conclusion, I recommend that almost every character have 1 movement infusion and 1 wild (mental) or wild (physical/mental) infusion during the early game, since that will give you ways to handle the most serious negative effects. If you can't find a movement infusion, use 1 wild (physical) and 1 wild (mental). Your third inscription will depend on your class; if you have healing/shielding skills but not teleports, get a teleport rune. If you have teleports but not heals/damage shields, get a shielding rune or healing/regeneration infusion. If you can't use runes, get a torque of psychoportation and use a healing/regeneration infusion. If you already have these bases covered by class talents, then you can consider other inscriptions.
1. If you don't have a teleport skill that can target out of line of sight, get either a torque of psychoportation or a teleport rune. Psychoportation is more powerful since it can be used even if you have effects like confusion, but it takes up your charm slot and (as far as I know) doesn't have the minimum range that teleport rune does, so you might get unlucky and get teleported in the same room.
Use your teleports liberally to get out of situations that seem potentially dangerous. Teleport might save you as a last ditch effort before you die next turn, but it's better to use it right away when things start going downhill. Many enemies don't have healing/regen, so you can even chip away their health by attacking, teleporting away, resting, and coming back to fight. Remember that most skills can fail or be disabled under some circumstances, and the longer you stay in a losing fight, the more likely it is that your skills will get disabled by a stunned/confused/pinned effect.
2. Make sure you have skills or item for avoiding/removing harmful effects. Look for items that give immunity to things like stun/freeze, confusion/daze, pinning, and disarm (if you rely on your weapon). Make sure you have a wild infusion that can remove physical and/or mental effects; during the early game, you might even want 1 wild (physical) and 1 wild (mental). If your class has skills for removing negative effects, get it and use it. Some classes will want to consider unlocking the Celestial/Light tree as a reward from an anorithil escort; in addition to handy heals and damage shields, this category has the Providence skill that removes one effect each turn for up to 7 turns.
Remove confusion effects as soon as possible with a wild (mental) infusion since it makes you add randomly and unable to use most spells that aren't instant-cast. This effect is bad news for anyone, but it's especially harmful to spellcasters.
3. Use a movement infusion. This is something that many new players probably don't take advantage of as much as they should. I only started using it to the full potential fairly recently, and I can tell you from experience that it makes a big difference. The obvious use of movement infusion is to run faster, either to get close to enemies or to run away. The less obvious use is to get immunity to stun/daze/pinning for several turns, and I consider this the more important use.
Stun and daze are particularly problematic because they disable some of your skills and keep all your skills from recharging. If you don't have a way to avoid or remove stun/daze, you're eventually going to get in a situation where your escape skills are disabled. Pinning is also problematic because it disables your movement infusion, so getting pinned can often lead to getting stunned/dazed. It's important to avoid that situation, so I recommend using your movement infusion preemptively, even if you don't need the increased speed. You can use teleport while pinned, and it's often a good idea so you can remove the effect at your leisure and reorganize before approaching the fight again.
If you're a ranged character, use your movement infusion when enemies come into melee range even if you're not going to run away. If you're a melee character, use it when you're close enough to a target to run up to them during the increased speed effect; this depends on speed rating of the infusion--for instance, a movement infusion with 500% increased speed should allow you to walk 6 tiles in 1 turn. This way, you'll have several turns of stun/daze/pinning immunity when you reach your target.
4. Be careful about your positioning. Use corners to your advantage, so you can look in a room and quickly escape behind cover if it's too dangerous. Retreat into 1-tile-wide pathways to fight enemies one at a time. Use skills like Track, Arcane Eye, or wand of clairvoyance to learn the locations of enemies before they see you. Try to use auto-explore or click-to-move, since they will stop you if you see an enemy or start taking damage. If you move with the keyboard, it's easy to start hitting the direction keys multiple times and accidentally lose turns when you get in a fight.
In conclusion, I recommend that almost every character have 1 movement infusion and 1 wild (mental) or wild (physical/mental) infusion during the early game, since that will give you ways to handle the most serious negative effects. If you can't find a movement infusion, use 1 wild (physical) and 1 wild (mental). Your third inscription will depend on your class; if you have healing/shielding skills but not teleports, get a teleport rune. If you have teleports but not heals/damage shields, get a shielding rune or healing/regeneration infusion. If you can't use runes, get a torque of psychoportation and use a healing/regeneration infusion. If you already have these bases covered by class talents, then you can consider other inscriptions.
Re: How do I Not Die?
If you want to escape play a class with conveyance. There is much more to it than just that, but its the most straightforward first step.
Archer is ..... not so good. I mean it can be ok in some ways. But there is a reason there are very few NM or Insane wins with archer. Partly its kind of boring, partly its lacking somethings. Whenever I play one I keep thinking "Why aren't I playing a skirmisher?"
If you want a ranged build that is tough I suggest trying my Light mage Shadowblade build posted in rogue spoiler forum, its specifically geared to be beginner friendly. Not claiming its the best Shadowblade build, but its a ranged build with conveyance and good shielding. Although once its rolling it may not feel all that "tactical".
There are other good ranged options too; AM, skirmisher, temporal warden etc.
Really there are a number of good build guides all over the spoiler forum. If you aren't "getting it"; follow one of them.
Archer is ..... not so good. I mean it can be ok in some ways. But there is a reason there are very few NM or Insane wins with archer. Partly its kind of boring, partly its lacking somethings. Whenever I play one I keep thinking "Why aren't I playing a skirmisher?"
If you want a ranged build that is tough I suggest trying my Light mage Shadowblade build posted in rogue spoiler forum, its specifically geared to be beginner friendly. Not claiming its the best Shadowblade build, but its a ranged build with conveyance and good shielding. Although once its rolling it may not feel all that "tactical".
There are other good ranged options too; AM, skirmisher, temporal warden etc.
Really there are a number of good build guides all over the spoiler forum. If you aren't "getting it"; follow one of them.
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Coldbringer
- Archmage
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:08 pm
Re: How do I Not Die?
Good advice here about status effects and escapes.
I'd add to that, sometimes the best defense is a good preemptive offensive. My archer is level 33 now and has a long vision range from equipment and generic talents. This means she gets the first shot almost every time. I use that opportunity to blind or stun my opponents, and get whatever other status effects I have from weapon/ammo and gear onto them. This way I'm starting out the fights with a big advantage, I've stacked the deck in my favor.
Use walls and corners to your advantage. Especially if you have equipment or talents that reduce projectile speed. Get some shots in then see your opponents shots coming in and avoid them.
I'd add to that, sometimes the best defense is a good preemptive offensive. My archer is level 33 now and has a long vision range from equipment and generic talents. This means she gets the first shot almost every time. I use that opportunity to blind or stun my opponents, and get whatever other status effects I have from weapon/ammo and gear onto them. This way I'm starting out the fights with a big advantage, I've stacked the deck in my favor.
Use walls and corners to your advantage. Especially if you have equipment or talents that reduce projectile speed. Get some shots in then see your opponents shots coming in and avoid them.
"You could skip it, i think it drops 0 xp and 1 copper [at most], you are better off selling oxygen to beggars to become rich."
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Groggeneral
- Wayist
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:28 pm
Re: How do I Not Die?
There's been plenty of good advice here already.
What you also want to look at is choosing proper equipment for the class. With Min (Lvl 13 Archer) you have equipment that gives Mag and Will (cloak) or items that would not be my first choice for gear (mighty girdle with +4 Armor. Girdles with bonuses in Dex and/or con or elemental resistances or defense instead of armor would be more useful). There have been a few characters where I suspect that your choice of equipment was not the best. It would be helpful to tell what preferences you have when choosing equipment.
Another example: You have pickaxes on many of your characters as tools. Why? There are often better options. Psychoportationtorque, wands with freeze ability, mobility enhancing wands or tools that decrease the mobility of enemies. In one case you also have the telekinetic core on a character to pull enemies towards you. Pulling your enemies towards you is one of the least helpful actions you can do as an Archer... I really hope you know that
If there are too many enemies to handle with your attacks before they reach you, rather retreat than stand and fight. Movement runes, Teleport, phasedoor - you have a few choices apart from archerabilities that stun at choke-holds and allow you to get away.
As an Archer: If you don't have distance between you and the enemies, your wilds are on cooldown and you already have to use your spell shield, get out of there. It will get much easier when you find your way of choosing more appropriate equipment (rares are not always first choice just because they look shiny!) and you use more runes/spells that deal with escaping and deleting status effects.
If you want to run away while stunned, pinned to the ground, freezed and silenced it is too late.
What you also want to look at is choosing proper equipment for the class. With Min (Lvl 13 Archer) you have equipment that gives Mag and Will (cloak) or items that would not be my first choice for gear (mighty girdle with +4 Armor. Girdles with bonuses in Dex and/or con or elemental resistances or defense instead of armor would be more useful). There have been a few characters where I suspect that your choice of equipment was not the best. It would be helpful to tell what preferences you have when choosing equipment.
Another example: You have pickaxes on many of your characters as tools. Why? There are often better options. Psychoportationtorque, wands with freeze ability, mobility enhancing wands or tools that decrease the mobility of enemies. In one case you also have the telekinetic core on a character to pull enemies towards you. Pulling your enemies towards you is one of the least helpful actions you can do as an Archer... I really hope you know that
Sounds like Archer might not be suitable to your style of playing. Dancing is also often applicable to archers from my experience. I'd also suggest trying a melee class (Berserker, Bulwark) or archmage if you want to stick with ranged.Either I stand and fight or die as I run away.
Study your enemies. For example, I'm terrible cautious in Daikara because I just know how terrible some things can be (Thunderbolts, Icebreath and other freeze abilities).Besides dumb mistakes, I generally find myself getting in over my head. I'd like to have a better understanding of how to know that with enough time to escape.
If there are too many enemies to handle with your attacks before they reach you, rather retreat than stand and fight. Movement runes, Teleport, phasedoor - you have a few choices apart from archerabilities that stun at choke-holds and allow you to get away.
As an Archer: If you don't have distance between you and the enemies, your wilds are on cooldown and you already have to use your spell shield, get out of there. It will get much easier when you find your way of choosing more appropriate equipment (rares are not always first choice just because they look shiny!) and you use more runes/spells that deal with escaping and deleting status effects.
If you want to run away while stunned, pinned to the ground, freezed and silenced it is too late.
Re: How do I Not Die?
Thanks so much for all the detailed feedback. I think you guys are right and Archer might not be the class for me (yet). I'm sticking with Dwarf Alchemist for now and have reached level 21 with only two deaths. I don't remember the first death, but the second one was to the boss in Bearscape because I got over confident after killing all the rare mobs. I'm hoping that using the Alchemist's ability to convert metal to gems will provide me with all the money I need to keep Power is Money maxed out.
What I like about the Alchemist is the Golem can usually get me out of trouble. I have to be careful though, because when he goes down, things can turn bad quite quickly. I'm really surprised that by swapping one of my healing Inscriptions with one that is escape-oriented has really helped. I really didn't like teleport runes initially because I think I was using them foolishly. Now I'm considering things like how much of the map is revealed. Also, Gem Portal helps get just far enough away that I can usually make a run for it while my Golem tanks... run back to an earlier level, use some gems to rebuild the Golem, then reassess the situation.
Again, thanks for all the tips! I never thought I'd like a rougelike style game, but I'm racking up the hours on this one!
What I like about the Alchemist is the Golem can usually get me out of trouble. I have to be careful though, because when he goes down, things can turn bad quite quickly. I'm really surprised that by swapping one of my healing Inscriptions with one that is escape-oriented has really helped. I really didn't like teleport runes initially because I think I was using them foolishly. Now I'm considering things like how much of the map is revealed. Also, Gem Portal helps get just far enough away that I can usually make a run for it while my Golem tanks... run back to an earlier level, use some gems to rebuild the Golem, then reassess the situation.
Again, thanks for all the tips! I never thought I'd like a rougelike style game, but I'm racking up the hours on this one!
Re: How do I Not Die?
Yeah, make sure to invest in Extract Gems and use it on every item you don't need that isn't in yellow text (Unique). Unique items can be worth a lot more than what you'd get in gems. You can easily get twice as much money during one playthrough using Stone Alchemy to convert everything to gems.
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twas Brillig
- Wyrmic
- Posts: 279
- Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:06 pm
Re: How do I Not Die?
My last win I unlocked Stone Alchemy at 10, extracted basically everything I found, and ended up with enough money for an absurd number of Merchant artifacts. It can be very, very powerful.
Re: How do I Not Die?
If you don't want to die pick a class that isn't terribly awkward to play like Archer to begin with, they haven't really got anything unique and are in serious need of a rework. To get an idea of how good the classes are feel free to check out the tier list: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=42608
Having said that if you like ranged Archmage is the way to go, in which case feel free to read/follow my guide: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=42019
Other than that I would agree with most of the advice given here (except Stone Alchemy...).
Having said that if you like ranged Archmage is the way to go, in which case feel free to read/follow my guide: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=42019
Other than that I would agree with most of the advice given here (except Stone Alchemy...).
<shesh> cursed is fine
Re: How do I Not Die?
Well, he's talking about playing an Alchemist. I can't see not investing in Stone Alchemy on that class. Whether it's worth it on other classes is debatable.