Dual Shields: Procs for the win ( Insane )

[fateriddle]

Here's the winner: https://te4.org/characters/215967/tome/ ... 9b4cdfbf73
I've done it in a speedrun manner, and dare myself to enter High Peak at level 42( cleared 2 orc bastion and 2 locations required to come back west and nothing else ). I think I died 5 times to Elandar, and for the first time inspected and studied Elandar after the 3rd death.

The last fight, I killed the boneshield one pretty quickly, then the ground was mostly covered in darkness, I somehow can't use either rocket dash or fearscape shift (is it a bug?), that leaves movement infusion being the only gap closer and Elandar either pushing me away or teleport or vanish herself every other turn, making the fight unnecessarily painful. Then I finally realized I could stay next to wall where she won't be able to push me away, and somehow I got lucky she decided not to teleport away for a while, so I killed her in I think 8-10 turns.

Someone please share the general tactic for a melee character in that last fight.

Back to the character, I was trying to build a best melee adventurer, and switch between saws and dual shields. As core concept, both builds take Demonic Pack / Doom Shield, to abuse the proc damage and tankyness. Overall, the dual shield builds is way more tanky and has on par damage, the saws build has more mobility choice and covers the debuffs better in early to mid game.

Core Concept
1. Shield increases 2.5% proc damage per accuracy. For a character with 80 accuracy, your proc damage hits 300% as hard. Triple damage!
2. Earthen Power = 2 shield attacks & 1 counter attack, adding TK staff and Shield of Light, that's 5 hits per turn, each 300% proc damage.
3. I'd say Demonologist is the best defensive class in game due to Osmosis Shield and Blood Shield, imaging how good they are with 2 shields instead of 1...
4. There is an ego that proc damage equal to armor value and an artifact Blackfire Aegis, both greatly boost your offense and unique to shields.

Build Overview
Race
Dwarf as the only available choice.

Stats
Magic = Cunning > Willpower > Strength

Prodigies
Flexible Combat
Arcane Might or Pain Enhancement System or Cauterize

Class
Wild-gift / Earthen power: 5/1+/1/0
Corruption/Demonic Pact: 5/5/1/5
Corruption/Doom Shield: 3/3+/0/0
Celestial / Guardian: 2/1/3+/0

Corruption / Fearfire: 2+/1+/0/0
Wild-gift / Ooze: 5/1/1/3
Technique / Agility: 5/0/0/0
Chronomancy / Temporal Combat: 2/1/2+/1
Cunning/Lethality: 2+/5/0/0

Generic
Race/Dwarf: 1/2/5/0
Techniques/Combat Training: 5/5/0/4+/0/0 (accuracy is damage, more the better.)
Psionic/Finer Energy Manipulations: 3+/1/1/5 (so you can TK a staff)
Technique / Thuggery 1/5/5/5

Thoughts
1. I experimented 4 new trees in the winner:
Wild-gift / Dwarven nature: summon tanks, then cleanse 5+ debuffs. Great but not necessary in late game, especially when you just want to cleanse, it took two turns. So I replace it with Lethality in this guide, for much needed all penetration, as you can take down those level 90+ epic/boss with 90% all resist/antimagic shield/flat damage reduction and 10+ sustains.

Technique / Thuggery: Great. 50% stun and confusion immunity makes it much easier to achieve 100%, plus crit chance/crit multiplier/attack speed/armor pen/physical resist pen, all good staff. Best thing is, you have enough generic points to invest deep into this tree.

Corruption / Fearfire: gap closer + all debuff removal. Wonderful. the hp cost of Cauterize Spirit looks scary but really is not. Fact I only invest 1 point in my build.

Technique / Agility: would you invest a category point for: "45% chance to deflect any income damage by 250", yes, that's how ridiculous this talent can be with 500 block value. That's essentially 45% evasion since nothing really hit you harder than 250 hp. Instantly feeling like a boss when I pick it up at level 36.

2. After reach East, you'll have a cog icon talent, plus Cauterize Spirit / Fiery Cleansing, that's 3 "all debuff" removals, 2 with relatively low CD. Adding Reasign / Wild infusion and high saves from Dwarf, I didn't have any problem with debuffs late game.

3. With 8% vamp, Agile Defence + Mitosis + 200 armor, I already "arrow key" in and out 2 orc bastions without paying attention. Plus Osmosis Shield + Blood Shield paired with 500 block, and Retribution / Stoneskin/ Stone Fortress/ Reabsorb... I feel this build is a defensive overkill, as 90% of the game is a sleep walk.

4. Offensively, the only worry is the last fight, where resist pen is needed for killing it more quickly ( 10 turns isn't bad, but more chance for drama ), 99% the time, the proc damage will melt down everything in first contact. You don't get to "Demon Seed" a rare if not close in it with a movement infusion.

5. Temporal Combat seems unnecessary, but the early to mid game damage can be vastly different w/o it, in my experience. Somehow it hits very hard.

Order
take Guardian + Fearfire (save 1 cate before so you can take both) at level 10, then Thuggary -> Agility -> Lethelity.

Equipment
1. offensively, looking for: accuracy and proc damage early game, and critical chance, acid/physical penetration after Corrosive Cone.
2. defensively, looking for: heal mod and stun/confusion immunity.
3. utility, looking for: teleport and gap closer like rush.

Optimize

Temporal Combat & Agility can be replaced if you find a better fit to the build.
Potential candidates including eldritch shield/temporal/rampage/bone/celestial combat/shadowflame/shadow magic

That's all.

[visage]

Here's the winner: https://te4.org/characters/215967/tome/ ... 9b4cdfbf73
1. Shield increases 2.5% proc damage per accuracy. For a character with 80 accuracy, your proc damage hits 300% as hard. Triple damage!

I noticed that your winner was wearing a shield with the "on weapon hit deal bonus damage equal to armor" effect. Is that affected by bonus proc damage percent?

If so, just how much of your damage output was from that affix alone?

[fateriddle]

@visage

This ego is yet another reason to play with shields Yes, it is boosted by bonus proc damage, and does tons of damage. I put it on the offhand, so it will proc more with Shield of Light.

I didn't remember how much specifically ( and my character sacrificed himself in the end, can't test now ). I'd say Corrosive Cone is still doing the majority of the work as it frequently hits 1000+, to be honest, I kinda disappointed this ego doesn't stand out since I got 200 armor ( or I didn't pay attention? ). If you got it early though, it can be a game changer (On another run, I started to one shot everything after finding a shield with this ego, and it does half the total damage).

[visage]

More questions.

There is an ego that proc damage equal to armor value

Did you ever try running with Chronomancy / Matter? That would give you even more armor as well as physical/magical buff removal.

Celestial / Guardian: 2/1/3+/0

How useful was Retribution?

Cunning/Lethality: 2+/5/0/0

The shield attack in Guardian counts for Expose Weakness, such that you were generally running with 3-4 EW stacks? (One for each shield, one for the Guardian attack, and sometimes one for Flexible Combat? ...and sometimes Blade Flurry would give you a bit more, I assume.)

Does the resistance penetration on Expose Weakness affect procs? I notice that the talent says "weapon resistance penetration".

Did you ever try the build with Greater Weapon Focus for even more Expose Weakness stacks?

Technique / Agility: would you invest a category point for: "45% chance to deflect any income damage by 250", yes, that's how ridiculous this talent can be with 500 block value. That's essentially 45% evasion since nothing really hit you harder than 250 hp. Instantly feeling like a boss when I pick it up at level 36.

Thinking about Madness and this build: unfortunately, plenty of things do hit for a lot more than 250. (...and with double-shield Osmosis, the only scary things are sustain removal, disarm, and spike damage.) However, that still adds up to a lot of damage mitigation in a form that's immune to sustain removal (unlike Vines+Tarrasca or Mitosis).

Also, given that it only works when you're not blocking, if I were to sub this into one of my madness runs I'd presumably be dumping Eternal Guard and focusing my shield itemization more on offense instead of trying to cover every resistance. Interesting.

[fateriddle]

More questions.
Did you ever try running with Chronomancy / Matter? That would give you even more armor as well as physical/magical buff removal.

It's a decent talent, 50% stun immunity, barrier can be good in last fight, armor will also be your damage so it is tempting. So it boils down to which talent to sub out and do you have enough talent points to cover it, that sort of things.

How useful was Retribution?

It helps me achieve "Size doesn't matter" ( doing 1500 dmg in one hit ) to my surprise Joke aside, to me it's more of an assurance preventing being "one shot" in worst scenario. 1 point is ok if talent point runs short.

The shield attack in Guardian counts for Expose Weakness, such that you were generally running with 3-4 EW stacks? (One for each shield, one for the Guardian attack, and sometimes one for Flexible Combat? ...and sometimes Blade Flurry would give you a bit more, I assume.)

Does the resistance penetration on Expose Weakness affect procs? I notice that the talent says "weapon resistance penetration".

Did you ever try the build with Greater Weapon Focus for even more Expose Weakness stacks?

5 points investment in EW gives 25% pen per attack, so 4 hits will do the work, you usually can hit 4 times if no miss, and in theory 100% penetration is the cap, so no need to go further. And unfortunately EW doesn't affact procs ( at least it seems so in code ), nevertheless it still helps a lot.

Thinking about Madness and this build: unfortunately, plenty of things do hit for a lot more than 250. (...and with double-shield Osmosis, the only scary things are sustain removal, disarm, and spike damage.) However, that still adds up to a lot of damage mitigation in a form that's immune to sustain removal (unlike Vines+Tarrasca or Mitosis).

Also, given that it only works when you're not blocking, if I were to sub this into one of my madness runs I'd presumably be dumping Eternal Guard and focusing my shield itemization more on offense instead of trying to cover every resistance. Interesting.

Good luck with Madness! Definitely post your build

[Snarvid]

I don't know what the standard tests are, but my guess is that in vivo it's much more complicated than "the dual shield builds is way more tanky and has on par damage, the saws build has more mobility choice and covers the debuffs better in early to mid game."

In my experience, saws will never be able to match shields for armor and block, especially when you look at something like the Darkfire Aegis (although if the shield user skips Tinkers then Unstoppable Force salve can temporarily help steamsaws Osmotic Shield healing approach that of dual-shield, but the armor and defense will still be significantly different no matter what and there's no way around it). Shields will never be able to match the single-target damage available through Continuous Butchery, especially when you look at something like Razorlock (with a Shalore Possessor I averaged ~54k/round against a target dummy over Continuous Butchery's duration, which with Link of Pain from Black Plate made the final bosses a walkover).

Do you notice the EQ/Vim weirdness much? I've never played with them on the same character.

[fateriddle]

Do you notice the EQ/Vim weirdness much? I've never played with them on the same character.

yes, I noticed demon seed talent will cost 20+ EQ, so I pick up Ooze for EQ management. Doesn't affect the game play except more resting time to recover EQ.


Sorry if that statement you mentioned is misleading. I intended to compare the pros and cons between this dual shield adventurer and the saws adventurer just posted shortly before (steamdemon post), both builds focus on proc damage rather than weapon damage. Saws has more weapon seeds & shields procs harder, so that's why I figure the damage is on par.

questions:
1. About all damage increase ( Continuous Butchery ) and all resist for the same regard. Does it calculate twice?

Like 10% increase damage results in 10% all, and 10% physical, then result in 20% increase in physical?

2. the damage potential from Continuous Butchery seems crazy, but I noticed "If you strike any other foe the bonus ends" which seems harsh, since metal of tempest will hit any adjacent foes.

[Snarvid]

I don’t know. I think it’s probably additive each time. It’s bonkers strong on Shalore because Timeless extends the duration, you’re got global speed bonuses, and Razorlock hits x3 per swing, so you’re iterating multiple +17% damage bonuses per round.

I think if you were looking to make a build around Continuous Butchery you could probably mix in some good single target Cursed stuff (Rampage, Endless Hunt) and then add in Link of Pain or a similar effect (Overkill might be nice, does what it says on the tin and doesn’t cost you class points, or Timeline Threading could be extremely powerful both for Braid Lifelines and Cease to Exist, along with opening up access to the Madness-surviving Bathe in Light + Temporal Fugue combo). You’d need to just decide when entering a fight whether Tempest or Butchery would be most appropriate.

[visage]

5 points investment in EW gives 25% pen per attack, so 4 hits will do the work, you usually can hit 4 times if no miss, and in theory 100% penetration is the cap, so no need to go further. And unfortunately EW doesn't affact procs ( at least it seems so in code ), nevertheless it still helps a lot.

Given that your focus is proc damage and you're playing in Insane, have you tried Strife? (Assuming that Dominate affects procs as well as weapon damage.) That gets you resistance penetration and defense shred combined.... and the rest of the category is generically useful.

[fateriddle]

@visage

I thought about it, but then I'm not sure how much mind power I can get cuz that's not the focus of the game. It will make a save check so not sure if boss will take it. The tree is decent enough to consider a try.

btw, I think shield tree will work great:
1. shield offense. Assault's interaction with shield in main hand is astonishingly good, as the result will be 1 offhand hit plus 4 mainhand guaranteed crit! Only 6 turn cd.

2. shield defense. The only talent that boosts block value! 50% stun/pushback immunity and heroism among of hp and negative hp, but the shame is you won't be investing hard in either SRT or CON.

[wuxiangjinxing]

Help! I cannot attach demon seeds to my mainhand shield.

If I click the seed in the inventory and select attach, the game just tells me that there is no applicable equipment for this seed. Maybe even a shield in mainhand is still a shield so I cannot attach mainhand-only seed to it? Then how could I proc fireballs with dual-shielding?

[fateriddle]

Help! I cannot attach demon seeds to my mainhand shield.

If I click the seed in the inventory and select attach, the game just tells me that there is no applicable equipment for this seed. Maybe even a shield in mainhand is still a shield so I cannot attach mainhand-only seed to it? Then how could I proc fireballs with dual-shielding?

You're right, mainhand shield is still a shield. But you can attach weapon seed onto your TK weapon (Finer Energy Manipulation enables it).

[hackandslashtoface]

I am really impressed with this build fateriddle. I find Adventurers to be the most fun part of TOME and have been trying to come up with really strong builds, but I've never come close to this. I'm strolling through Insane mode right now and find it unlikely I'll die. Best defense I've ever played and while the offense from Pulverizing Auger + Magical Combat offense is likely better for Madness, your build still kills fast enough in Insane to not even notice a difference.

Bravo!

Then how could I proc fireballs with dual-shielding?

I'm pretty sure you don't get the procs dmg / accuracy bonus from any procs that have a travel speed like the fireballs from the Fire Imp main hand demon seed.

[visage]

And unfortunately EW doesn't affact procs ( at least it seems so in code ), nevertheless it still helps a lot.

Yeah, I decided to test this recently and I'm pretty certain at this point that Expose Weakness doesn't boost proc damage. Alas...