[1.5.5]Steamdemon: Saws + Demon Seeds (Insane/RL EoR winner)

[Snarvid]

I would not unlock them individually. I don’t think you’ll get the extractor to make materials without the tinker escort, and then you can’t use what you learn.

Also, you get 2 category unlocks and a free generic point in each with the escort.

You can:
- save-scum. Save before leaving a level, if you get an escort when you go into the next area that’s not a Tinker escort ctrl-alt-delete to task manager and close the game. Then reload and repeat until tinkered.
- download Choose First Escort mod. It lets you set your first escort in the game options. More stable and less unbalanced than the choose all escorts options.

[Moopamoop]

Actually, Adventurers in AoA always start with the Automated Portable Extractor, so they'll have it available from the start of the game, so you're able to build up materials before even meeting your tinker escort. Unlocking the trees individually is possible, but still a far, far worse deal than an escort, since you'll have to spend 2 cat points to get a worse deal than the escort gets you for one.

[tabs]

I had a similar EoR Insane winner. Which was far from optimal and included filler stuff like Torture.

Some class trees worth additional consideration: Lethality (for Expose Weakness) and Furnace (for res-pen and damage reduction).

Also, Energy is an excellent generic tree both early (Eneergy Decomp) and late (Entropy).

[Snarvid]

Actually, Adventurers in AoA always start with the Automated Portable Extractor, so they'll have it available from the start of the game, so you're able to build up materials before even meeting your tinker escort. Unlocking the trees individually is possible, but still a far, far worse deal than an escort, since you'll have to spend 2 cat points to get a worse deal than the escort gets you for one.

Oops, that’s right.

So, in sum:
Pros of escort
- 2 categories unlocked
- 2 free generic points
- access to shop with a modest selection of steam implants, injectors, and recipes

Cons
- costs 500 gold.
- if you don’t have lots of movement options or a teleport through walls (slime roots or the like), the fight to get to the machine can be tricky before level 20 (there’s several enemies protecting it).

Overall, the escort is build-defining and I wouldn’t run an adventurer with tinkers without it.

[Moopamoop]

Definitely worth mentioning that, because you start with the APE, it's not very important for adventurer's to rush to get tinker access. They can afford to wait until they can do so safely, because ultimately all they're losing out on is access to the talents. You're positioned really well to wait until level 20 or even to wait until 36 to get those tinkers if that's how long it takes to find a tinker escort (assuming you're not using the choose your escort mod or save-scumming to get tinker escort immediately). Unlike other classes, you really don't lose much by waiting, as you're guaranteed to have a solid stockpile of materials already whenever you unlock tinkers.

Essentially, the only reason not to get tinkers this way is if you're very opposed to modding or save-scumming and did not receive the tinker escort naturally (or you did but she died). If that's the case, then you could totally spend 2 cat points to unlock tinkers.

[levsha]

The ingredients are not a problem. In any case in low levels you will get only low grade ingredients. The problem is finding recipes. If you learn tinkering at level 36 or later, you may miss some important recipes.

[Snarvid]

You can find recipes as an Adventurer, but you have to hold onto them until you can learn them when you unlock the category.

[Moopamoop]

Yup. You still find recipes and steamtech gear as an adventurer even with no steamtech talents unlocked, so you won't have those issues. In fact, holding on to recipes is really helpful to you in general, since once you unlock tinkers your spare recipes that you've been carrying and no longer need make great fodder to feed the sher'tul base, something you'll have trouble doing since you're going to be turning so much else into craft mats.

I've been playing adventurer in all my runs for the past few weeks, trying to make the ultimate blocker, master of shields so I've got a pretty good grasp on how the item drops and pick ups work. Believe me when I say -- it is completely and totally doable to unlock the categories individually without the escort or to unlock the categories late. You will not miss out on anything by doing this other than the sweet deal you get from the escort (if you unlock them without her) or the advantage of being able to start using tinkers as soon as possible (if you wait until late levels). Both of these are things you probably don't want to miss out on, but if you don't have the option of the escort or if you are, for some reason, very very concerned that unlocking them before level 36 will get you killed, then the other options still work.

[Effigy]

I feel like it's worth unlocking tinkers at level 20 to get Grounding Strap and Iron Grip, assuming you can find the recipes. Not really necessary to get it before that though because you probably have enough other things to spend generics on.

[fateriddle]

Does one of the Chants regen positive energy, or do you mean Anorithil?

Retribution works, but Shield of Light's costs positive energy each time it triggers.

You're right, I mean Anorithil. BTW, recently I find Thuggery pretty decent. 50% stun/confusion immunity, crit/attack speed/crit dmg plus ~40% physical pen.

[Effigy]

I was considering Thuggery, but I found it difficult to fit in the build. The majority of the damage is non-physical, so the penetration is not that important. Still, the other bonuses are nice.

[fateriddle]

How do you manage damage pen then? What's like in final fight?

Also, the dual shield build is pretty good if not better than saws:
con:
1. only 1 weapon seed
2. less auto triggered attacks
3. not much choice for mobility other than shadow magic

pro:
1. bonus proc damage from accuracy means, all your procs hit twice as hard in end game, more than enough to compensate
2. counterattack, sometimes kill stuff from miles away before you know it.
3. eldritch shield = stun attack, proc dmg, flurry, windblade
4. Shield has ego: proc dmg equals to armor value every attack, which is rare (not artifact level rare) but crazy dmg output, (think about 200 armor then bonus from accuracy, for every hit!)
5. talking about artifact, blackfire Aegis = easy mode.
6. much better healing from doom shield, since dual shield can get you 500+ block value rather than 250+
7. shield seed is pretty good for defense. especially blood shield with 500+ block gives 75 flat reduction for all types.
8. If you go with magic combat, shields proc more often, and you'll be surprised that Arcane Destruction hits harder than spell proc.
9. no need for steam generator, save one salve slot.

[Snarvid]

We’d need a post or link to a specific build for a pro/con comparison to be meaningful. Things like “drop steam generator to save salve slot” speak to large differences in the character - no rocket boots for another gap closer/escape tool until you find Steam Powered Boots (usually in Room of Death IMEX), no thoughts of iron for molten iron blood/mental status clear/free injector, no Tempest of Metal/Grinding Shield. At least until drowning leaves the game, running triple high-level fire seeds makes the T1/T2 transition (often the hardest part of the game) a smooth ride. Likewise, engaging from Saw Wheels makes a fundamental difference in gameplay, as does using Saw Wheels to kite with your TK-grasped weapon (will swing roughly once every 3 moves)... you can’t remove those abilities and still have the core concept.

My variant, which uses Spacetime Weaving for an instant-action controlled teleport, basically never stands and fights tough melee does prior to PES - it’s Saw Wheels in, Dimensional Step out, drop a Fatal Attractor, retreat or snipe with ranged magic till Saw Wheels cools, repeat (which works less well on Madness due to Hunter!, as I’m finding out). A radically different play experience than dual-shields.

[Effigy]

@fateriddle
You get some physical penetration from Bloodthirst and all-res pen from the Orc racial, but overall it doesn't have that much penetration unless you get it on gear. Since it deals at least 3 different damage types, penetration is usually not an issue though.

From what I've seen, dual-shield is a strong build but it can't be used in EoR and in general it's just a very different build. That build is more like Arcane Blade, while this one is more like Demonologist.

[fateriddle]

How do you kill a bone gaint with 80% all resist, heals constantly? Pretty much all high peak random bosses have incredible all resist.