Sun Paladins in 1.25: a vaguely comprehensive guide

[OrionJAnderson]

Simple slip of memory on my part -- It is indeed 1/4/1/1 for shields. I may have had an item that was improving shield offense. Anyway, I think taking the 2-handed assault tree was the mistake. I'd try sinking those points back into celestial tress and just enjoying the big weapon damage on Assault and Wave of Power.

[Atarlost]

Being able to riposte into two handed skills was the whole point of monkey grip according to the first person to try to convince me it was a good idea. I don't think having crusade over combat techniques would be worth the 20% spell and physical power penalty and proc nerf.

[OrionJAnderson]

Nah, riposting into 2-handed skills would be nice, but honestly using Assault to double-crit your greatsword is good enough. I suppose it would be even better if you used perfect strikes to pump your crit damage. I think you may be right that it's not worth giving up combat technique for crusader, but I think it would work to take all three. I really like the crit passive in Crusader, and flash of blades as yet another defense button. for while Retribution cools down.

[OrionJAnderson]

Something very important that I forgot to say: the other benefit to ogre monkey grip, and this is a huge one, is stacking up two sets of enchantments. 2H weapons have stronger numbers on their abilities than 1H weapons, and there are some great 2-handed artifacts.

On my mokey grip paladin, I ran all the way up to around level 40 using Tirakai's Maul. The stat bonuses are great, but so is getting a solid +% light damage and turning your whole auto-attack into light, yet switching types in 1 round as-needed. That's a utility a shield build would normally never get. The shield I paired with it from around level 20 to 30-something was a cosmic shield of patience. Casting Time Shield as an active is not something a 2-handed build would normally get. It was the ability to combine time shield with selectable magic damage as much as combining crusader with guardian that got me through the game.

[Atarlost]

Something very important that I forgot to say: the other benefit to ogre monkey grip, and this is a huge one, is stacking up two sets of enchantments. 2H weapons have stronger numbers on their abilities than 1H weapons, and there are some great 2-handed artifacts.

On my mokey grip paladin, I ran all the way up to around level 40 using Tirakai's Maul. The stat bonuses are great, but so is getting a solid +% light damage and turning your whole auto-attack into light, yet switching types in 1 round as-needed. That's a utility a shield build would normally never get. The shield I paired with it from around level 20 to 30-something was a cosmic shield of patience. Casting Time Shield as an active is not something a 2-handed build would normally get. It was the ability to combine time shield with selectable magic damage as much as combining crusader with guardian that got me through the game.

That relies on finding a specific artifact. If you had found Morrigor or Dawn's Blade instead you'd probably be kicking yourself for going two handed.

[OrionJAnderson]

Remember, I didn't use 2-handed assault at all, and I unlocked Guardian before Crusader. So for most of the game I could freely choose the best 1- or 2-handed artifact I found. I think I unlocked Crusader at 36.

[Atarlost]

Remember, I didn't use 2-handed assault at all, and I unlocked Guardian before Crusader. So for most of the game I could freely choose the best 1- or 2-handed artifact I found. I think I unlocked Crusader at 36.

I still can't recommend monkey grip. Skipping 2-handed assault does very little to improve the talent spread situation.

From things you've said in another thread I get the impression you haven't played a non-ogre paladin. The extra damage you're claiming just isn't there in my experience. You're losing more off spellpower based procs and shield damage than you think. Any damage advantage you're seeing is coming from the Tirakul/absorption strike combo, which doesn't require a monkey grip build because it's in crusader anyways.

I'm running a monkey grip test build right now. I may be getting more damage out of the mainhand than a shield build, but I'm getting less out of the shield and the procs and spellpower is what all the important defenses except block scale off of. It's just not better at killing things than the sword and board tests were at the same level and it's late enough in the game that any future improvement doesn't redeem the weak early and mid game.

[OrionJAnderson]

You may very well be right that for Sun Paladins, the monkey grip doesn't really add much damage. I was really disappointed by the damage I got out of Shield of Light, and if I had full spellpower and full-strength procs, that might have closed a lot of the gap w/ 2-handed (it <i>was</i> nice not to pick shields for utility and ignore damage though). Having thought it over I would concede that the monkey grip paladin is not really any better than a traditional paladin. I haven't played paladin successfully any other way yet (just coincidence due to bad luck and errors), so you may be correct to say that sword and board is outright better. I don't really think so, though. Most of the problems you're citing don't strike me as major problems, so I suspect that monkey grip is about equally good as the alternatives. Let's run through your beefs:

"spellpower is what all the important defenses except block scale off of"

Rune of Reflection and Bathe in Light scale on magic. Second Life scales on health. Mark of Light scales on damage, Sun's Vengeance scales on crit chance, and Flash of the Blade doesn't scale at all. Runes actually also scale a little bit with crit chance. There are actually lots of survival tools that don't use spellpower. Also, the lost spellpower is just not that significant. In my endgame build, monkey grip was the difference between 96 and 90 spellpower. With the diminishing returns spellpower has in talent formulas, that's really not a big deal.

"the Tirakul/absorption strike combo, which doesn't require a monkey grip build because it's in crusader anyways."

Are crusader builds any good though? I haven't tried it, but my instinct is that Guardian looks way, way better. I'd guess that 1h+Shield is about a good overall as 2H+shield, and much better than 2H alone.

"Skipping 2-handed assault does very little to improve the talent spread situation"

If I gave up on Crusader, what would you recommend doing with those class points? I didn't feel that my other trees were starved. Do you recommend Radiance? If not, what do I do with my category?

"any future improvement doesn't redeem the weak early and mid game."

There is no early or mid "monkey grip build," so I don't see how it can have a weak early-to-mid game. For most of the game your build looks exactly like a normal Guardian. Start with Shield Offense and Celestial/Combat. Unlock Guardian at level 10. Take a rune slot or Combat Techniques at level 20. You only have to put 2 points in grisly constitution. If you find a great 2-hander, you can float in the last 3 at any time. If you find a great 1-hander, don't bother. Once you do take the plunge, you can float in to stunning blow and fearless cleave if you want them. If you find a better 1-hander, float those points back out. At level 36 you probably take Crusader but if you're still not ready to take the plunge, take the last rune and wait for wyrm bile.

[Atarlost]

You may very well be right that for Sun Paladins, the monkey grip doesn't really add much damage. I was really disappointed by the damage I got out of Shield of Light, and if I had full spellpower and full-strength procs, that might have closed a lot of the gap w/ 2-handed (it <i>was</i> nice not to pick shields for utility and ignore damage though). Having thought it over I would concede that the monkey grip paladin is not really any better than a traditional paladin. I haven't played paladin successfully any other way yet (just coincidence due to bad luck and errors), so you may be correct to say that sword and board is outright better. I don't really think so, though. Most of the problems you're citing don't strike me as major problems, so I suspect that monkey grip is about equally good as the alternatives. Let's run through your beefs:

"spellpower is what all the important defenses except block scale off of"

Rune of Reflection and Bathe in Light scale on magic. Second Life scales on health. Mark of Light scales on damage, Sun's Vengeance scales on crit chance, and Flash of the Blade doesn't scale at all. Runes actually also scale a little bit with crit chance. There are actually lots of survival tools that don't use spellpower. Also, the lost spellpower is just not that significant. In my endgame build, monkey grip was the difference between 96 and 90 spellpower. With the diminishing returns spellpower has in talent formulas, that's really not a big deal.

Bathe in Light's description is misleading. It says it scales off magic, but it really scales off of spellpower and magic boosts spellpower. Runic shields scale off a raw stat, but the boosting from Weapon of Light and Bathe in Light scale off of spellpower. Weapon of Light doesn't even have the standard scaling's diminishing returns. Sun's Vengeance isn't a defense. It contributes to having positive energy, but the actual defense comes from Shield of Light, which scales on spellpower. Or from Sun Ray blinding enemies, which is a spellpower based save. Runes don't crit. Flash of the Blade isn't actually that important: if you have 4/5 FotB and use it there will be very little alive to attack you the next turn, though it may get more important at higher difficulties. I suppose you could call Mark of Light a defense. It never impressed me much, though.

You're also seeing less effect because you have been unreasonably lucky with items.

"the Tirakul/absorption strike combo, which doesn't require a monkey grip build because it's in crusader anyways."

Are crusader builds any good though? I haven't tried it, but my instinct is that Guardian looks way, way better. I'd guess that 1h+Shield is about a good overall as 2H+shield, and much better than 2H alone.

Crusader builds work quite well. They're not as defensive, but their offensive is better and their fatigue issues aren't as bad.

"Skipping 2-handed assault does very little to improve the talent spread situation"

If I gave up on Crusader, what would you recommend doing with those class points? I didn't feel that my other trees were starved. Do you recommend Radiance? If not, what do I do with my category?

Combat Techniques. Rush is better than Path of Light for slapping down casters before they teleport or summon a half dozen profoundly annoying armored skeletons. Precise Strikes brings your crit rate into the band where the Sun's Vengeance engine maxes out earlier and gives you overflow accuracy for dex builds. Perfect Strike gives you lots of accuracy overflow which translates directly into higher damage if you use a sword and have a high enough crit rate. Blinding Speed is blinding speed. I find that as a paladin I can max every single talent and not regret it.

"any future improvement doesn't redeem the weak early and mid game."

There is no early or mid "monkey grip build," so I don't see how it can have a weak early-to-mid game. For most of the game your build looks exactly like a normal Guardian. Start with Shield Offense and Celestial/Combat. Unlock Guardian at level 10. Take a rune slot or Combat Techniques at level 20. You only have to put 2 points in grisly constitution. If you find a great 2-hander, you can float in the last 3 at any time. If you find a great 1-hander, don't bother. Once you do take the plunge, you can float in to stunning blow and fearless cleave if you want them. If you find a better 1-hander, float those points back out. At level 36 you probably take Crusader but if you're still not ready to take the plunge, take the last rune and wait for wyrm bile.

A normal shield build unlocks Combat Techniques at level 10 or 20, probably 10 in 1.3 since movement infusions were nerfed. A normal two handed build unlocks it at 10. A cornac unlocks it at level 1. Rush makes handling ranged enemies a lot easier. Even before the recent movement infusion nerf they didn't match Rush offensively at low levels. The monkey grip tests are the only paladins I've made that didn't max rush and I regretted not having it constantly. PotS is fine for stuff like wyrmics that won't wreck the tactical environment in one round but rush is better against necromancers and annoying teleporters and two closers are better than one. Aiming to get both Guardian and Crusader prevents you from getting Combat Techniques.

Ogres also just have a high XP penalty. You're going to be about two levels behind a halfling by the time you get to the master of Dreadfell. That XP penalty hurts all game because Sun Paladins can't reliably farportal away the XP gap. Test Ogre 2 looks like he may not reach level 50 before the sorcerers because of an unkillable radiant horror randboss forcing him to break the fortress farportal. It will probably depend on how many of the stairbosses need to be avoided. Even a shalore would hit 50 when an ogre would be 48.

[OrionJAnderson]

I took Guardian, Crusader, and Combat Techniques.

[Atarlost]

I took Guardian, Crusader, and Combat Techniques.

Ah, I misread what you said for level 20 as just an inscription slot, but at level 44 I'm still not seeing any meaningful damage advantage. It kills okay, but not noticeably better than a non-ogre. Without seeing some sort of actual benefit I can't recommend it.

I find myself extremely doubtful about your build. If you ever linked it I missed it. You must have your class talents spread thin and you have an awful lot of spellpower. A lot of stuff scales off of spellpower -- enough to make a 20% penalty really bad -- but in terms of itemization it actually should come in behind crits and +light% and heal mod* and combat speed that don't have diminishing returns.

* for shield builds; for plain two handed builds it's not so great