To Rush or to not Rush - Sun Paladin

[Effigy]

Ogre is probably good, but I think wielding the 2-hander with a shield is probably not worth the drawbacks. It reduces your phys power, spellpower, and procs, all of which are important to Sun Paladins. The rest of the Ogre racials are good though. Overall, I think Shalore is probably a stronger choice.

As for the loot question, yes, higher difficulties (especially Insane/Madness) tend to drop better loot. This is both because the enemies are higher level and the mob level seems to be tied to the item stats, and because there are more rare/unique/boss mobs so you have more chances for something good. The yellow (fixedart) items will be the same regardless of difficulty, but the pink/orange items can vary greatly.

[Frumple]

Two-hand staff pays for the power malus with massive +% damage modifier and higher spellpower than most other 1-hand options can offer, in my experience. The proc is marginally more of an issue, but I've never noticed much of a general damage falloff in the times I've ran staff/shield ogres. Plus being able to run both the two-hand and shield trees at the same time is pretty darn sexy.

[Atarlost]

A staff build will have minimal Str, yes, but a non-staff build needs to max Str for damage. This is not so much for the phys power as it is for the direct damage scaling of the weapon.

There's little shortage of damage output on a dex/cun/mag compared to a str/cun/mag sword and board build. You get enough strength naturally from gear and hitting early skill prerequisites that multiplying with more and stronger crits gives plenty of damage. And you get a 15% chance to shrug off criticals out of dex as well as around 6% crit mult with a sword or around 37% proc damage with a shield with precise strikes. When using any of the shield assault talents shield of light will proc off of a shield strike.

What are you guys thoughts about Ogres Vs Shalore? I made a Ogre till lvl 25 and then realized that Shield of Light extra attack was getting halved by Ogre's Constitution (didn't thought that would be considered a proc). Since I had maxed SoL and could not take out the points, I rerolled a Shalore, but the damage seems considerably lower then the Ogre.

Ogres aren't bad, but oversized weapons are. Spellpower influences pretty much everything you do. All your heals and shields including shield of light and weapon of light are spellpower based. Chant of Fortitude uses spellpower. Cutting spellpower cuts into all the things that make a paladin not a bullwark. Talent points are also too tight when trying to use both guardian and crusader. On the other hand if you just don't use oversized weapons at all the inscription related ogre stuff is pretty good. Not as good as for someone with the aegis or fungus tree, but pretty good.

[Effigy]

There's little shortage of damage output on a dex/cun/mag compared to a str/cun/mag sword and board build.

I think you're underestimating the contribution of primary stats to weapon damage. The Dex/Mag/Cun approach is ideal for staves because their damage is based on Mag. For conventional weapons, your damage will be gimped if you don't stack Str. Crit multi is great, but actually getting to the point where you have 100% crit chance and high crit multi is going to suck with a low-Str sword build. I'm not entirely convinced it would be better even after having 100% crit chance. If you want to neglect Str, then you might as well go staff.

[Meredoth]

I read somewhere else that the reduced spellpower etc. of Ogre is actually the total before scaling, so with spellpower above 60 (or 80 can't remember) the 20% reduction would be something like 12%. You can lower this by increasing your size. Still, it's a reduction.

Anyways, found a better shield so Shield of Light is doing a decent damage now, which is nice and may compensate the damage I lost from the two handed weapon from Ogres. Guess that this time I'll beat Nightmare Roguelike! hehehe

[Majestix]

I beat Insane/Roguelike with an Ogre Sun Pala, thinking that I would end up using a 2-handed staff. But a good short staff turned out to be a much better option, even with +2 size. The spellpower and proc penalties are just hard to compensate. I didn't actually crunch the numbers, just tried things out on the dummy in the Shertul Fortress. Not sure how this comparison would play out for conventional weapons, since the 120% Str vs 100% Str already helps offsetting some of the penalty.

On Insane, I could reach close to 100% crit rate while maxing Mag and Str, and raising Dex and Cun about equally. Note that Dex with Precise Strikes will only improve your physical crit rate, not the spell crit rate, which is extremely important defensively. That's why you still need Cun. The reason I went with partially raising Dex and taking Precise Strikes is because of accuracy. With a staff, you actually do quite a lot of damage off your procs.

[Atarlost]

There's little shortage of damage output on a dex/cun/mag compared to a str/cun/mag sword and board build.

I think you're underestimating the contribution of primary stats to weapon damage. The Dex/Mag/Cun approach is ideal for staves because their damage is based on Mag. For conventional weapons, your damage will be gimped if you don't stack Str. Crit multi is great, but actually getting to the point where you have 100% crit chance and high crit multi is going to suck with a low-Str sword build. I'm not entirely convinced it would be better even after having 100% crit chance. If you want to neglect Str, then you might as well go staff.

Dex/Mag/Cun sword and board no vault works just fine for the difficulty that the game is actually designed to be balanced on. You put strength high enough to qualify for Assault with items and you're done with it until you hit the 60 cap with your other stats. Early on the dex based crit on riposte is substantial and there wouldn't be much strength in any case. Damage was never a problem except against luminous and radiant horrors. I'm certain I saw a changelog a few versions ago that stat points per level are now the same across all difficulties so the relative functionality of the build should hold until crit rate maxes naturally from items without heavy stat investment.

And you don't go staff because short staves are not reliably available. If there weas an early short staff artifact that grew like Tirakul you could build for it when you happened to find it, but there isn't.

[OrionJAnderson]

Definitely unlock Combat Techniques. Sun Paladins generally don't need to unlock generic trees, and Shalore paladins REALLY don't need to. You have so many amazing skills to invest in. This means you can freely unlock 2 class trees. You will almost certainly want either Guardian or Crusader; Guardian is the better of the two IMHO, and is mandatory if you use shield. After your weapon tree, your choices are radiance, combat tech, or if you're an ogre, the second weapon tree. If you're a Shalore, it's just radiance vs. combat tech. Rush is great. It's an additional move skill that can allow you to save PotS for an escape or a second gap closer or replace a movement infusion. Perfect Strikes is also really good. It lets you hit invisible enemies, or avoid missing while blind, and it lets you hit the occasional rare rogues with defense so huge they're otherwise untouchable. If you have a staff or sword it may give you some good damage. Also, as a shalore, you can extend its duration with timeless. Radiance offers a lot of the same benefits -- defense reduction and invis piercing -- and some other utilities, but no movement.

As for Ogres vs. Shalore; Shalore are better, for sure. Timeless is pretty much the best thing in the game and it's *really* good for sun paladins, cause it can extend your various shields and buffs while resetting cooldowns for your next round of shields and healing. Faster leveling makes the T2 dungeons easier than they would be for an Ogre, and while the HP differential is big, you have the tools to survive. Racial crit chance and damage stack great with your skills.

Ogres are a totally respectable second choice, though. I won normal with one and it was a lot of fun. HP, big runes on low CDs, and an extra utility rune are all great. However, I've had some arguments with Atarlost about this and I've come around much closer to his way of thinking. Combat Techniques is so strong that just because you CAN roll Crusader/Guardian doesn't mean you SHOULD. Even if monkey Gripping, Guardian/Technique is valid. Also, Monkey gripping for weapon damage is not, in the abstract, really worth it. That said, it's a good option to have because it expands your gear options. If you have an amazing 2H artifact and an amazing shield, it can pay off. For instance, my ogre winner went through the midgame wielding Tirakai's Maul and a shield that cast "time shield," and he even found randart boots with +2 size. I chose to unlock Crusader and Guardian, and was lucky enough to find items that would cast perfect strikes and blinding speed for me. With all the right drops, monkey grip was pretty great. If I did it again I might skip Crusader, and if I found a great 1H I might have stuck with that.