I tried start a Ranger, all classes at the beginning aren't that fun but few, until they get more abilities. But for the ranger, I get so much bored that I quit before playing too long with the class.
I'd say that Ranger including first skills ranger need a lot more thinking. Stun, Push back, slowing, kill fast at a price, jump back, beaming, bouncing, area effects, and more. A long range character need options to be fun, the first steps as a Ranger are awful.
Any comment about that?
Ranger boring to play?
Moderator: Moderator
Re: Ranger boring to play?
...Do you mean Archer?
Archers are pretty simple, but a few classes really ought to be, especially for beginners.
If you're specifically talking about a Ranger, that'd be an addon that doesn't come with the game, and you're probably better off giving feedback in the Ranger thread than in general Warriors-most addon classes are works in progress, and their developers appreciate feedback(and probably aren't going to think to look for it over here.).
Archers are pretty simple, but a few classes really ought to be, especially for beginners.
Scattering Shot.Stun
No pushback on bows, but they get pinning instead. Or you can use slings for Inertial Shot.Push back
Crippling Shot.slowing
Rapid Shot.kill fast at a price
Disengage.jump back
Piercing Shot.beaming
No bouncing, but that's kinda silly and there's multiple forms of area effect(both actual blast radius and multiple arrows launched at targets in the area).bouncing
Also Scattering Shot.area effects
There's more. There's only so fast you can give skills; Archer's not going to have twelve one skill trees just so people can pick up everything at L1. (Heck, even if you did, the class points would limit that. And it might actually trap players into overly spreading points out, which isn't necessarily optimal.)and more.
If you're specifically talking about a Ranger, that'd be an addon that doesn't come with the game, and you're probably better off giving feedback in the Ranger thread than in general Warriors-most addon classes are works in progress, and their developers appreciate feedback(and probably aren't going to think to look for it over here.).
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Archers just seem strictly inferior to Time Wardens, if you use bow. So, "archers" are actually "slingers".
Re: Ranger boring to play?
You're probably right, long term.
Short term, Temporal Wardens are generally worse, though. It's harder to get any of their unique advantages on Archers off the ground(requires a category point for one of their two archery categories, and almost all of their unique advantages on Archers require leveling Willpower or Magic.).
Meanwhile, short term, Archers get Steady Shot, which is arguably the best overall physical skill in the game.
Basically, Temporal Wardens are more of a later game thing. I agree that a lategame TW ends up better(Haste makes up for lack of Aim/Rapid Shot to a fair degree, and they get more escapes and passive buffs. And Epoch's Curve.), but basically what they have on an Archer early is Dimension Step and Celerity, neither of which are particularly incredible(not bad, they're just not Steady Shot.).
Short term, Temporal Wardens are generally worse, though. It's harder to get any of their unique advantages on Archers off the ground(requires a category point for one of their two archery categories, and almost all of their unique advantages on Archers require leveling Willpower or Magic.).
Meanwhile, short term, Archers get Steady Shot, which is arguably the best overall physical skill in the game.
Basically, Temporal Wardens are more of a later game thing. I agree that a lategame TW ends up better(Haste makes up for lack of Aim/Rapid Shot to a fair degree, and they get more escapes and passive buffs. And Epoch's Curve.), but basically what they have on an Archer early is Dimension Step and Celerity, neither of which are particularly incredible(not bad, they're just not Steady Shot.).
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Ok fine most of the skills exist but I haven't seen them in first levels except jump back which wasn't working well at first level, number of time I saw a slow Troll rush to me during one jump back was a weird point.
I'll try again but first steps of Archer was really from far the most boring compared to all other classes I tried.
I'll try again but first steps of Archer was really from far the most boring compared to all other classes I tried.
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Celerity does trivialize pretty much any and all early game melee threats, though (3/5, coming in at clvl 2, means you can match speed with snakes. Clvl 3, you can outright kite them.). Archers have that to a degree in disengage, but wardens get it more or less for free. I'd value that somewhat higher than a strong attack, early on.SageAcrin wrote:Basically, Temporal Wardens are more of a later game thing. I agree that a lategame TW ends up better(Haste makes up for lack of Aim/Rapid Shot to a fair degree, and they get more escapes and passive buffs. And Epoch's Curve.), but basically what they have on an Archer early is Dimension Step and Celerity, neither of which are particularly incredible(not bad, they're just not Steady Shot.).
E: Though I'd probably say that the early game comparison is fairly meaningless. In my experience, both archers and wardens pretty much demolish the T1 and most of the T2 dungeons (strong range damage > early game). S'only into the midgame and maybe the early late game that they start having issues.
E2: No argument archer is probably the most boring class to play, though. They're kinda'... plain, I'd guess you say. Very one dimensional, arguably even moreso than alchemists. Pretty strong once they get going, but not terribly interesting. There's been more than one thread pop up over the course of development related to discussing ways to spruce up their gameplay.
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Ehn, if you can kill someone using Celerity kiting, you can kill them anyways. You're a ranged class, and even when surprised, you still have Runes/Infusions no matter what, and solid durability in both cases.
It isn't the Prox or Norgos of the early game that you have to worry about early, it's the Shade(ranged damage), Withering Thing(can mob you with shadows), etc., and for those Steady Shot is better.
Might be a fair point on Temporal Wardens being easy enough anyways, though. I haven't mucked with one since I got decent at the game. (Obviously I unlocked Paradox Mage with them, but that was before my first clear.) It's planned, but not quite yet.
It isn't the Prox or Norgos of the early game that you have to worry about early, it's the Shade(ranged damage), Withering Thing(can mob you with shadows), etc., and for those Steady Shot is better.
Might be a fair point on Temporal Wardens being easy enough anyways, though. I haven't mucked with one since I got decent at the game. (Obviously I unlocked Paradox Mage with them, but that was before my first clear.) It's planned, but not quite yet.
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Ok tried a second Archer, the first point is with the first I get bored and fed up BEFORE reaching level 4. 
Well I won't attempt argue I do agree it's weird.
This time I dig better the interface with an Archer and I think I got it. I was using, click on a shot skill then return, plus clicking to reload. Only that is tedious particularly because on Mac version when a target is selected moving the mouse is pointless because it suddenly extremely slow to move it when it's target mode.
So instead this time I tried right click on the target and select the shot. But then realized I could be out of range and lost a shot and not see it because the right click menu is above the target hiding it. The solution beside knowing perfectly the distance, would be a visual hint to shows it's out or range, either in the right click menu, either in the popup panel when the cursor is above a target, not only see "in sight" but also in "range".
Then I tried custom binding for those first steps, click on target does the standard shot, and I tried bind middle click to have a second shot type like this. But I got troubles to move instead when there's no ammo or no skill not ready. But I still get a better fluidity in gameplay and reach level 4 relatively fast.
In my opinion, the right click and menu need be improved to show what is in range or not, and some skills could offer a one shot sniping ie with range bonus.
At level 4 there's many choices, so I take them all as I hadn't used the skill points yet. To realize after to have validated that skills for shots was only for slings and skills for arrows only for bows. Well very bad idea to limit the choices to weapon type. it's like if there was skills only for axes and some other only for swords. The game doesn't have that many skills for Archer to make this choice a good one. Realism? Screw up the realism gameplay is the point.
Moreover my character was to trash with skills wasted for both sling and bows. Aaarg!
Well I won't attempt argue I do agree it's weird. This time I dig better the interface with an Archer and I think I got it. I was using, click on a shot skill then return, plus clicking to reload. Only that is tedious particularly because on Mac version when a target is selected moving the mouse is pointless because it suddenly extremely slow to move it when it's target mode.
So instead this time I tried right click on the target and select the shot. But then realized I could be out of range and lost a shot and not see it because the right click menu is above the target hiding it. The solution beside knowing perfectly the distance, would be a visual hint to shows it's out or range, either in the right click menu, either in the popup panel when the cursor is above a target, not only see "in sight" but also in "range".
Then I tried custom binding for those first steps, click on target does the standard shot, and I tried bind middle click to have a second shot type like this. But I got troubles to move instead when there's no ammo or no skill not ready. But I still get a better fluidity in gameplay and reach level 4 relatively fast.
In my opinion, the right click and menu need be improved to show what is in range or not, and some skills could offer a one shot sniping ie with range bonus.
At level 4 there's many choices, so I take them all as I hadn't used the skill points yet. To realize after to have validated that skills for shots was only for slings and skills for arrows only for bows. Well very bad idea to limit the choices to weapon type. it's like if there was skills only for axes and some other only for swords. The game doesn't have that many skills for Archer to make this choice a good one. Realism? Screw up the realism gameplay is the point.
Moreover my character was to trash with skills wasted for both sling and bows. Aaarg!
Re: Ranger boring to play?
You should probably give Archers a fair shake before you call them boring or say they're inferior to Temporal Wardens. They have a lot of AoE options and some interesting ways to kite single big foes. They're not the best at big open combat, but places with corridors are amazing.
I honestly think it's one of the easiest classes in the game to ascend with. The first archer I got up and running was also my first character to beat the Master, then make it to the East ... and then to actually ascend. So, there you go. I even did the vault in the Vor Armory at about level 43.
They do have a lack of good ways to spend Generic points, I'll give you that, but a Shalore AM Archer fixes that problem and gives you a lot of interesting things to play with, for generic point spending. And between the Thalore generics making you hard to kill and having Anti-Magic Shield up... you're almost unkillable. Adding a 4th important stat stretches your stats a *bit* thin, but Superpower fixes that.
I don't see a need for a bow archer to take sling talents. I suppose you could, but I never had a problem spending my talent points.
I honestly think it's one of the easiest classes in the game to ascend with. The first archer I got up and running was also my first character to beat the Master, then make it to the East ... and then to actually ascend. So, there you go. I even did the vault in the Vor Armory at about level 43.
They do have a lack of good ways to spend Generic points, I'll give you that, but a Shalore AM Archer fixes that problem and gives you a lot of interesting things to play with, for generic point spending. And between the Thalore generics making you hard to kill and having Anti-Magic Shield up... you're almost unkillable. Adding a 4th important stat stretches your stats a *bit* thin, but Superpower fixes that.
I don't see a need for a bow archer to take sling talents. I suppose you could, but I never had a problem spending my talent points.
"How do you pronounce Shalore?"
"you pronounce it like "trash" but with an e at the end" - Sheila
"you pronounce it like "trash" but with an e at the end" - Sheila
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Boring word was coming from the first experience where the controls I was using made it slow and a bit tedious. By using better controls the second attempt was more pleasant but I still find it a bit tedious.
But I stick to the feeling that just by looking at the available skills this class is undeveloped. For me the comparison point are the Shadowblade and the Rogue. The Archer has three Class skills lines it's not much and yes 3 not 4 because using both sling and arrows is possible but a bit weird.
Then there's another general line that makes sense. And then there's two lines to open later, both are melee lines. This let exactly 3 class skills lines, that's very very short and the sling/arrows lines shouldn't be dedicated to a weapon type.
Then the general skills doesn't help improves this lack of abilities with 3 skills lines and the race line, but it's separated points so it's more about the class skills.
Moreover a skill like disengage would be a tactical choice skill for a melee class, for the Archer it's just a systematic answer. Also reload is another systematic answer, a little choice but not much.
That said, apart by opening the sling and bow lines to all long range, I don't see how it can be improved. Long range fights are much better with long range opponents and the game is more setup for melee. Also with the alchemist I tried a class I found even more tedious than the Archer.
But I stick to the feeling that just by looking at the available skills this class is undeveloped. For me the comparison point are the Shadowblade and the Rogue. The Archer has three Class skills lines it's not much and yes 3 not 4 because using both sling and arrows is possible but a bit weird.
Then there's another general line that makes sense. And then there's two lines to open later, both are melee lines. This let exactly 3 class skills lines, that's very very short and the sling/arrows lines shouldn't be dedicated to a weapon type.
Then the general skills doesn't help improves this lack of abilities with 3 skills lines and the race line, but it's separated points so it's more about the class skills.
Moreover a skill like disengage would be a tactical choice skill for a melee class, for the Archer it's just a systematic answer. Also reload is another systematic answer, a little choice but not much.
That said, apart by opening the sling and bow lines to all long range, I don't see how it can be improved. Long range fights are much better with long range opponents and the game is more setup for melee. Also with the alchemist I tried a class I found even more tedious than the Archer.
Re: Ranger boring to play?
My feeling about the Archer is also just a feeling even if some stuff like few skills are a clue. I need dig it more to confirm the feeling of a lack of building choices and a lack of tactical choices.
For the first point, firstly it would help to open the sling and bow lines to both weapons types. Well then a skill would be a duplicate. But trying open more tactical choices should bring new skills to add. I think the point is to have tactical choices that aren't to use the strongest skill ready, even reload isn't that fun but it's part of mechanisms using more or less arrows. The point is also that the game allows to rest a lot, so a very powerful skill is only half minored by a very long cooldown or a high stamina cost.
I'm not designer in the soul and don't see how a good gameplay could be designed without concrete testing. But by getting idea from other games and playing with idea here some possibilities to explore and possibly make more fun the Archer:
- Throws a dummy that can attract enemies attacks.
- Throws a dummy mirror that will shot the same shot than you did in previous turn but with half final damages and alway a target choose among closest enemies. During this time your final damages are also halved. The dummy will get the same states and damages than you does only them. Well ok I don't see the lore explaining it's not magic, well common a bit of imagination will do the work!
- Throws a dummy of different type, shared cooldown, only one at same time. Could be a dummy with longer range attack but less damages, or short range but more damages, or slowing a bit…
- Throw an area trap on ground, for slowing, or oil for burning if an enemy in the trap is shot with fire, or with chance to make fall and short time stun. Those traps would have a linked cooldown, can't use another during the cooldown.
- An instant skill with effect during some turns, it allows any shot to be above opponents or friend target. Again, if it must not be magic then some lore need be invented.
- Instead or in addition of the skill allowing to push forward enemies in front, the same effect but requiring a movement forward of three squares first then chained by the push pack.
- A skill to push back all enemies around and a chance to stun them 2/3 turns. The push is shorter back than other push back.
- A skill for full reload with the character that is paralyzed during 3 turns.
- A skill to exchange position with an enemy but with a long range only, like 4-8 squares. Yeah it's not magic it's ninja technic.
- A shorter range cone shot, would use multiple arrows.
For seeing further I suppose there's already stuff that can use an Archer. For shooting at longer range I suppose it would be too OP. For exploding/area shot I suppose the one available is already ok. For more movement abilities I suppose the Archer could use other stuff. For bouncing with piercing I suppose it will be hard in a game like that.
Now I did all the dirty work, there's just to implement it, test it and keep what is working, easy.
For the first point, firstly it would help to open the sling and bow lines to both weapons types. Well then a skill would be a duplicate. But trying open more tactical choices should bring new skills to add. I think the point is to have tactical choices that aren't to use the strongest skill ready, even reload isn't that fun but it's part of mechanisms using more or less arrows. The point is also that the game allows to rest a lot, so a very powerful skill is only half minored by a very long cooldown or a high stamina cost.
I'm not designer in the soul and don't see how a good gameplay could be designed without concrete testing. But by getting idea from other games and playing with idea here some possibilities to explore and possibly make more fun the Archer:
- Throws a dummy that can attract enemies attacks.
- Throws a dummy mirror that will shot the same shot than you did in previous turn but with half final damages and alway a target choose among closest enemies. During this time your final damages are also halved. The dummy will get the same states and damages than you does only them. Well ok I don't see the lore explaining it's not magic, well common a bit of imagination will do the work!
- Throws a dummy of different type, shared cooldown, only one at same time. Could be a dummy with longer range attack but less damages, or short range but more damages, or slowing a bit…
- Throw an area trap on ground, for slowing, or oil for burning if an enemy in the trap is shot with fire, or with chance to make fall and short time stun. Those traps would have a linked cooldown, can't use another during the cooldown.
- An instant skill with effect during some turns, it allows any shot to be above opponents or friend target. Again, if it must not be magic then some lore need be invented.
- Instead or in addition of the skill allowing to push forward enemies in front, the same effect but requiring a movement forward of three squares first then chained by the push pack.
- A skill to push back all enemies around and a chance to stun them 2/3 turns. The push is shorter back than other push back.
- A skill for full reload with the character that is paralyzed during 3 turns.
- A skill to exchange position with an enemy but with a long range only, like 4-8 squares. Yeah it's not magic it's ninja technic.
- A shorter range cone shot, would use multiple arrows.
For seeing further I suppose there's already stuff that can use an Archer. For shooting at longer range I suppose it would be too OP. For exploding/area shot I suppose the one available is already ok. For more movement abilities I suppose the Archer could use other stuff. For bouncing with piercing I suppose it will be hard in a game like that.
Now I did all the dirty work, there's just to implement it, test it and keep what is working, easy.
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Just give archers Stealth tree
Re: Ranger boring to play?
I wouldn't mind seeing them get 1.0 Stealth as well as 1.1 Traps, both locked.
Stealth at 1.0 is a tree I have no idea how it actually functions-Stealth is very category value dependant. But theoretically the synergy with ranged weapons(Especially with Archery trees, which can do single, heavy damage ranged strikes) is huge.
Archer being a sort of fusion between the Technique and Cunning classes is definitely how I'd like to see it expand, if any way.
Stealth at 1.0 is a tree I have no idea how it actually functions-Stealth is very category value dependant. But theoretically the synergy with ranged weapons(Especially with Archery trees, which can do single, heavy damage ranged strikes) is huge.
Archer being a sort of fusion between the Technique and Cunning classes is definitely how I'd like to see it expand, if any way.
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Yes Stealth seems an interesting idea if Stealth really work And with Stealth in Plain Sight it seems cool, some items provide invisibility and also to see further but it's also skills that seems they could match the class. I suppose that with infravision it's not possible to shoot otherwise infravision and darkness area would be interesting, well if not OP.
About the skill to target above another target for sure it sure it should be forbidden to monsters. In my opinion it's pointless to give the same exact same abilities than players.
And with Stealth in Plain Sight it seems cool, some items provide invisibility and also to see further but it's also skills that seems they could match the class. I suppose that with infravision it's not possible to shoot otherwise infravision and darkness area would be interesting, well if not OP.About the skill to target above another target for sure it sure it should be forbidden to monsters. In my opinion it's pointless to give the same exact same abilities than players.
Re: Ranger boring to play?
Hmm, Stealth for archers can be OP, actually. AOE Shadowstrikes. Nice thing to try on Adventurer, though.