"Odyssey of The Summoner" is OUT!! Find it here...

[nekarcos]

@Arsonius
Good to hear Ritch is starting to shape up. Almost felt like it would never happen!

RE: Stingers deactivate
... Huh? That's... Strange...

Also, if you're auto-activating them (right click --> "always use when available"), they won't cooldown anymore-- A measure to prevent the game from locking up indefinitely.

RE: Screenshot
Damn... That's actually one of the more "problematic" versions of a lua error (no "Stack Trace").

I have an idea about what's wrong based on context, but if you could tell me how and when it happened (and ESPECIALLY what objects you clasped before then), it would help IMMENSELY!

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@tabs
... I'ma give these children a stern talking-to...

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@jenx
What tabs said.

[jenx]

"Odyssey of The Summoner" has been updated!! (Version 0.4.6)
...
- Fire Drake now starts with 0 Talent Points, but automatically knows Breath of Fire, Wingbeat, and Fire Claw at birth
...

not on my computer they don't. absolutely no change after I uploaded to 0.4.6....

Do you have "Autoassign talent points at birth" disabled?

yes

[Almonihah]

Ummmm... my armor from Treasure Hoarder's Will is displaying as negative right now...

[nekarcos]

Ummmm... my armor from Treasure Hoarder's Will is displaying as negative right now...

Ooooo, I definitely need to hear what's going on. This sounds dangerous now.

[Almonihah]

Well, the amount of armor showing for THW is "-9.2", and my total armor value right now is 20... when I have 24 from Nature Hardened alone. I did recently, ahem, reorganize my stomach. Not sure if that had anything to do with it. Character in question is this one: http://te4.org/characters/45587/tome/de ... 2c49fc9da9

(P.S. it seems Relief is still non-functional?)

[nsrr]

RE: "Batter" can't be used point-blank
... Strange. I thought I SPECIFICALLY removed that code... I'll look into that before the next update!

The offending bit of code still seems to be there. Just dove into the talent to check; it's right there before the move happens:

if not tx or not ty or core.fov.distance(x, y, tx, ty) > 1 then return nil end

Edit: Errr... Ok, I swear when I was looking at this last night that 'greater than' was a 'less than'... I just triple-checked to make sure I'm not crazy, and it's definitely 'greater than'.... so, I have no idea what's going on. I still can't use it at point blank range, though

Edit 2: Ok... so, it still doesn't make sense to me, but clearly I'm missing something in the path-finding logic being applied and it is not returning the values I think it is. Or something. Anyway, I went in and commented out the above line, and that did the trick. I swear that was nothing more than a sanity check to make sure the tile you are trying to end up on is actually adjacent to the target, but I guess I have no idea. I'm a total amateur, so it's all just guesswork. That line did, in fact, seem to be the problem, though. Tested it quickly to make sure this didn't cause any other problems with targeting, and it seemed to be working fine.

The changes to weapon damage are really showing. The damage I can put out with bumps is now much more worth the risk of getting up close and personal. I still Flamespit most mobs and keep a safe distance, but when I want something to die really fast I bust out the impermanent weapons and lay into them, which is what I feel like Ritch has been aiming for all along.

On an entirely different note:
The opening battle feels like it's reaching an ideal spot. When we first started, it was rather dull, didn't offer much incentive to join in the fight, and I usually just waited it out next to The Summoner. After the tune-up the army was... scary... and I timidly sat back, spitting fire until I managed to slowly wear down the required number of soldiers, but gaining about 75% of a level in the process. Now I am actively engaging, and I hit level two just as I defeated the required number of soldiers. Not too hard, and there's definitely incentive to join in. I might tweak the xp up just a tad more (I was playing Ritch, after all, and they gain xp the quickest of all the Monstrosities) and make the soldiers just a bit tougher, but the fight is in the best shape it has been so far, for certain.

That's it for the moment, I'll get back to you with more feedback when I have some more time to put in. I have a feeling my Ritch runs are going to start getting a bit longer

[Arsonius]

I am using auto-use when available, but it still deactivates when swapping weapons or changing items as I said.
As for lua error I was clasping mindstars. Lua error was there every time discomfort debuff ended. I also didn't get the message that's supposed to tell the result of re-clasping.

[Arsonius]

As a fire drake I am getting the same error. But it seems to only fire for mindstars, gems and jewelry are working fine.

[tabs]

"To He Who Calls" quest seems to break if you clear Derth/Trollmire/Korpul before going back to talk to talk to him. Dunno if this will have any ill effects.

[nekarcos]

Alright, finally found a bit of time to look into some things... Didn't take very long for A TON of new bugs to crop up, heh...

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@jenx
All we can do is see if this is happening to everyone. There's only 1 report about it, so I'll assume it's just human error for now-- No offense.

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@Almonihah
This too-- I played around with it bit, as well as skimming through the code... I can't figure out quite what did it, but this error might reveal itself if we wait a little longer and get more reports. If you can replicate it, however, I'll have a solution prepared for it immediately.

What of the more "nuclear" options is to make sure your armor never goes negative, no matter what-- But that would just prevent you from getting positive bonuses-- So we just gotta be patient with this bug.


RE: Relief
Yes. Relief is still stupid and useless and stupid. Once I've figured out exactly where I'm going to go with Treasure Hoarder's Will, I'll decide what to do with this talent.

As a reminder: The Hoarding Beast tree is supposed to revolve around the collection and "protection" of treasure/valuables. I will likely be adding more "mechanics" that will present "difficulties" with keeping them safe (as you've seen from the "Tarnishing" update, heheheh)...

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@nsrr
RE: "Batter" code
I'll be totally honest-- I don't really get how the "Rush" code works, and I quite literally copy-pasted it. I would have to sit down for a while and figure out what makes it tick to really understand it.
... And yeah... I COULD just remove that line... But who knows exactly how that might make it blow up... I already have reports from jenx about Fire Drakes using "Horn Charge" to plow through walls... Sheesh! And that was only a SLIGHT modification of "Rush" code!

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@Arsonius
You might notice that the "Discomfort" timer remains, even when an object is removed. I'm going to fix this and see if this makes that lua error go away. That's my theory, at the moment.

Two bugs with one stone, eh??

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@tabs
Breaks? How do you mean?
If you mean "I did all the quests without talking to The Summoner", then you've actually just touched upon the "Betrayal" route for the plot, hehehe...

[Almonihah]

Okay, so, I promised you hydra feedback... well, let's see how much I get out right now. XD I'm going to start with class talents, but first, the caveat that I'm hardly the most awesome ToME player, so you should take everything I saw with a grain of salt.

I think breaths have been discussed enough, so I won't say much there, other than to comment that they were still useful late-game for room-clearing, and because they're by far the hydra's longest-range attack with the right upgrades.

I didn't use the glare hydra abilities enough to really get a feel for them. I should have, because my mind power was insane by end-game, and the debuffs they apply looked nice. I just wanted to be a bitey-eaty hydra, so I didn't go for it much.

The Feral Hydra abilities were interesting. Honestly, the one I got the most mileage from was actually Drag In--by mid-game I *wanted* enemies next to me where I could tear them apart with my heads, so I rarely had reason to use Lash Forth unless I had them pinned against a wall. Wring Out seems like it would be cool, except the only enemies that last long enough for percentage-of-health damage to matter against are bosses, and they tended to be hard to get to stay next to me. I never used Thrash About--I'm very wary about anything that reduces my speed, and its effect just didn't seem worth halving my speed.

Given my stated goal of being a bitey-eaty hydra, I went straight for Ravenous Beast as my first unlock, which was... perhaps not the wisest move, as it seemed to be a fairly late-blooming tree. Voracious Feast... is there a resist chance on Imperil? It seemed like a lot of enemies that I hit for large percentages of their HP were not getting imperiled. Really, it didn't seem to be that useful of an ability anyway. It was nice as a source of equilibrium during Tannen's Tower, but otherwise, 99% of the time I'm dealing more than 10% HP in damage to an enemy in one hit, they're just trash that doesn't even matter. The defense penalty from it was kind of odd, but basically ignorable, since defense is generally pointless unless you really stack it up, and the save bonus was nice, but really just a drop in the bucket. If I play hydra again, I'll never put more than one point in Voracious Feast, and may not bother sustaining it.

Clamp Down was definitely nice, though it usually failed on targets I cared about (i.e. bosses and uniques). The synergy with other abilities on it is very significant.

Tear Apart was my late-game nuke. I don't think I've ever dealt more than 3000 damage in a single button press before, but I did with Tear Apart multiple times. My strategy for late-game bosses was basically "Clamp, Tear Apart, bump until they come off of cooldown"... and it worked. XD

I really wanted to like Swallow Whole. It's an ability with some real flavor (ha ha), and seems like it should be really powerful. But it suffers from several problems: First, it's hard to figure out how long your belly will hold out against an enemy, so it's difficult to guess when the massive risk you take in using it is worth the reward. Second, it seems to often fail on bosses/uniques, who are the enemies you'd really like to take out of combat for a few rounds while your abilities cool down and you regen. So it didn't see much (successful) use in my run.

I did find it very strange that both Feral Hydra and Ravenous Beast talents unlocked based on Willpower. I didn't mind, since that's what I was maxing first, but Strength or maybe even Con seem more appropriate.

I unlocked Triad late, when I was already steamrolling pretty much everything, so I didn't really test things out very thoroughly in the tree. A few thoughts on it, though:
*Triple Trouble seems like it would rarely come into play, I don't recall any time I was missing one of every head at once, since most enemies specialize in a couple types of debuffs instead of having a wide array of them.
*Delta Formation was definitely powerful. Not sure if it's 'just right' or 'a bit too much'.
*Triad of Threes was likewise very powerful. I would have done a lot better taking these before Ravenous Beast, I think.
*Trinity Attack sounds nasty, but the times I used it the results were... disappointing. Of course, this was when Tear Apart was mostly-killing uniques in one button press, so maybe I was just thrown off by that.

So yeah, there's some class talent thoughts. I could probably ramble on some more, but I'm tired and the memories are already fading. I'll try to talk about Generics and just some general thoughts sometime next week before I completely forget everything.

[Arsonius]

Backdraft should be clarified to scale from mindpower, also it probably should be rephrased, from reading it I thought that shown fire damage in description is separate from setting ablaze. Wingbeat I think should be able to crit (unless it can and I'm just unlucky) - it loses in power very quickly even when maxing Dex.
While inspiration on yourself is no longer required for Role Model, it is still stripped upon using it.

If Advanced weapon statistics option is on, upon trying to play as any shield user there are errors on game start, upon mousing over shields and even when trying to exit game.
http://imgur.com/a/4cwFy

[nekarcos]

@Almonihah
*nod nod* This all sounds about right.

RE: Late-game breath attacks
... I mean, what else are you gonna do until they get close to you...?

RE: Some talents are good, some of them suck... What's with that??
... Ahhh... Y'know, I had a pretty long answer for this, but I ended up erasing most of it and shortening it to this for the sake of time and convenience (and even then, it's STILL pretty long):

Ahem-- Sometimes, talents have to "suck" to keep things interesting-- To keep the player "questioning" and "justifying" their choices. "Natural Combat" is filled with A LOT of talents that don't exactly "scream" their usefulness... But when wielded by an "eccentric" enough player... Its usefulness might finally come to shine.

But yeah, when you saw "Voracious Feast" and went "Ehhh... This isn't really worth my class points"... THIS is EXACTLY what I'm talking about: You weighed, evaluated, and balanced out your options, and went for what you considered the most optimal-- You picked and focused on "Clamp Down" and "Tear Apart" instead of what was obviously a very underwhelming sustain against the truly "dangerous" scenarios of ToME. THIS, is precisely why some talents are underwhelming or have very "bizarre/questionable" effects-- And THIS decision-making is something very skilled players frequently underestimate when they play. Levelling up talents shouldn't be "Make me STRONGER, DUH"-- It should be "This improves my ability to do <X>... But really, I want to do <Y>"-- And the "sporadic-ness" of the synergy between talents in talent trees are designed to invoke exactly THAT.

... But wait-- They're not like this just to confuse or "trick" you-- Some talents beg for VERY inventive gameplay and/or players-- They ask for a certain playstyle, while others don't and simply want to be used. "Swallow Whole", for example, is a talent that wants very "patient", evaluative play. You don't eat anything with it unless "the time is right"-- Or else you'll just set yourself up for a world of hurt (since you attack/move slower). On the other hand, "Tear Apart" speaks for itself, and doesn't exactly need an academic diploma to be understood-- You hit them-- A LOT-- And you'll hit them MORE if you have MORE heads.

... But blah... Here I go talking about EXACTLY what I was trying NOT to bore you and everybody else with. The point is: "Some talents are weird and unwieldy on purpose-- To make things more interesting". Once the player starts looking for ways to make that "oddball" talent more useful, that's when the fun really begins. Simply put, "Odyssey of The Summoner" awaits a truly "inventive" player to draw out its full potential. To name a few and leave it at that: "Sordid Howl", "Clean Slip", "Titanic Roar", "Reverence", "Helmbreaker", "Torture"...


RE: Not Imperiled?
Were you getting healed when they died? Hmmm... I'll double-check it, just to make sure it's working.

RE: Why does everything need Willpower...?
Back when I created this class, I honestly expected Hydras to improve their Constitution due to being so preoccupied with their survivability/tankiness-- That is to say, the gameplay style I was trying to invent would have the player watching their own HP more than their opponent's. This is why there seems to be very little diversity of stat requirements-- I had always imagined a Hydra would be somewhat Willpower-starved due to investing most of it into Constitution-- Or maybe Dexterity. Hydra would spend a lot of time deciding if it needed additional survivability, or maybe new tricks to throw at their opponent (and thus, the HUGE lopsided-ness of locked Generics and locked Classes).


RE: Triad is so strong...
This is OK.
"Triad" is a tree that relies on the prolonged "multitude" of your heads-- Which is a resource the Hydra CANNOT easily restore (despite its various regenerative abilities). As such, I intend to be very "lenient" with this weakness-- Because there is ALWAYS select situations where a certain "type" of head can get utterly wiped out in mere moments ("Bane of Darkness", "Empathy Hex", ANY CCing trap/terrain effect, etc...). It is the "possible" moment where these "head-destroying" effects could come together that worry me the most about this weakness-- And within the context of the character and its mechanics, the only way I found to "alleviate" this weakness... Was by allowing "a few" effects to pass through heads and hit you anyways. Some people don't mind this-- Others have voiced how much it bothers them that heads sometimes don't block effects.

... Long story short: I like "Triad" where it is. The problem isn't that it's OP... It's that there aren't enough "threatening" forces to make you more concerned about the "integrity" of your heads, heheheh...


*** To note:
I was fairly "broad" with my responses this time around (instead of selectively describing each thing in detail). My reasoning for this... These are good topics-- But they all seem to equate back to a single thing that has bothered me for a long time. To be blunt, I don't feel like Hydra's "heads-die-when-smitten" mechanic is enough of a big deal (in concern with "Hydra" gameplay). The "vision" was combat where you'd selectively choose WHICH heads you'd use based on which ones were still active-- You'd switch to "Ferals" if your Drools were down and out-- Or your "Glares" if you have no Ferals either. The "defeat" scenario for a Hydra was primarily going to be when it was rendered completely headless (otherwise, it was nigh indestructible)... But this didn't quite "happen" mainly because not every enemy type has a way to smite heads-- Let alone a way to smite a "variety" of them.
I guess you can say this was a failing on my part due to "overestimating" ToME and its variety of detrimental effects. Turns out there really aren't that many cases; Everything mostly slaps you with stuns and whatnot and not really much else-- But I guess that's just my perspective, huh?

To put it into a nice table:
Fears ~ Basically, I've only seen "Aletta Soultorn" make use of Fears in a... Well, "fearful" way.
Silences ~ Only via "Antimagics", which is something you have to, moreorless, throw yourself into
Sleeps ~ Very specific Psionics. Particularly, "Mindworm"... But he's optional.
Blinds ~ "Sun Infusions" from random humans, or "Sand Breath" from Sand Dragons. Maybe "Bane of Darkness" from certain vampires.
Confusions ~ Minotaurs, Giants, certain Horrors, NPCs with "Skullcracker" Helmets... This actually shows up A LOT!
Stuns ~ EVERY KNOWN ENTITY IN THE UNIVERSE
*** As you can see: VERY lopsided.

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@Arsonius
RE: Mind-Draft
Clarified.

RE: Crit-Beat
Critified.
-- Although, it should be said that the "power" of Wingbeat lies in its LOW cooldown-- And thus, its ability to play "keep-away" with anything unfortunate enough to be susceptible to knockbacks. That's why it doesn't deal much damage!

RE: Role-Inspiration
Inspirated.
-- Wait, no no... UN-inspirated! Yeah, that's right! There we go!

RE: Shield-Advance
Emulsified. (wat?)
-- Added a sanity check. I was (rather carelessly) assuming that your "weapon" ALWAYS had a "combat" parameter (shields, though being used in combat, DO NOT have such, and is generated by the shield combat talent thingy).
In fact, I *think* this might happen for Brawlers too (although, a "combat" is generated for EVERY hand-gear in the game as soon as you become a Brawler... It's weird).

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PS: I'm almost confusing your names a lot...

[Arsonius]

To he who calls quest
It doesn't exactly breaks, rather just stays completed forever instead of done. It makes it different color from all other quests, but nothing serious I suppose.

Hydra heads
Seeing how droolheads are almost unaffected, maybe swap confusions and fears? Although to me it seems that blinds are even more common than confusions, mostly from egos (% on hit) on enemy items. Just as a thought, perhaps any head can be smitten by stuns?

Ejection
Ejection is actually dangerous to take if you rely on stingers, since if it is disabled by stun or something else, all of your stinger talents are unavailable. Maybe it should disable talents only upon actually using it?

[nsrr]

@nsrr
RE: "Batter" code
I'll be totally honest-- I don't really get how the "Rush" code works, and I quite literally copy-pasted it. I would have to sit down for a while and figure out what makes it tick to really understand it.
... And yeah... I COULD just remove that line... But who knows exactly how that might make it blow up... I already have reports from jenx about Fire Drakes using "Horn Charge" to plow through walls... Sheesh! And that was only a SLIGHT modification of "Rush" code!

Well, that makes me feel better about not understanding it myself

If it helps, one of my classes also has a talent that is literally a Rush copy-paste as well... except that I did remove that line (had to double check to see exactly what changes I made), and I have had no reports of Prowlers 'Pouncing' through walls or anything of the like. The only difference between Rush and Pounce in the 'action' code is that I removed the distance check that you have already taken out of Batter, plus the one mentioned in my post (and it 'Pins' rather than 'Dazes', but that should make no difference).

Then again, I've only received a teensy fraction of the amount of feedback that you have, so it's possible it's broken and no one told me, but I'm sure if you break it someone will let you know Your call, though, of course. Ideally, I don't like something getting that close to me before I Batter it, anyway.