Nullpack 2019-02-21: Gravitic Infantry

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Doctornull
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-10: Chronomancy Compensation

#211 Post by Doctornull »

marshmallowpeep wrote:Well, keeping them in the cone would increase the synergy with Repulsion Blast, which had been my intended strategy. Heavy doesn't really have any 360 degree AoEs to take advantage of having the enemies surrounding you
Chrono/Gravity has Repulsion Field, and Chrono/Time Travel has Echoes of the Past, both of which are self-centered 360° AoE effects. Those are both locked trees, but either one of them could be pretty decent.

Actually looking at the code, the shield-bash is against all adjacent enemies even if they were never in the cone. :)
marshmallowpeep wrote:On another note, I think it would be fun and thematically appropriate if Striker got Voidwalker, and maybe Ascetic got Arcane Surge in place of Enhancement.
Hmm! That could be interesting. Maybe I'll make that an option.

Thanks!
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Doctornull
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-10: Chronomancy Compensation

#212 Post by Doctornull »

Doctornull wrote:
marshmallowpeep wrote:On another note, I think it would be fun and thematically appropriate if Striker got Voidwalker, and maybe Ascetic got Arcane Surge in place of Enhancement.
Hmm! That could be interesting. Maybe I'll make that an option.
Done, it's now an option: Game Options -> Gameplay tab.

For the Striker, you choose either Divinations or Voidwalker.
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joebobjoe
Higher
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#213 Post by joebobjoe »

Getting into a storm warden and having a great time. I'm especially enjoying the various surges. Anyway would you be willing to do an optional conversion for the alchemists that makes the infusion line work like the surges instead of the current version where it's pick one or two to max and then completely ignore the rest of the line? For the 4 skills maybe something along the lines of damage increase, status power increase, golem boost increase, and 1 other. Maybe another one giving the golem secondary boosts depending on which you have active. I tend to play Alchemists as my fallback characters since I rather enjoy just using the golem as disposable minion who I keep sending off into horrendous danger once I get supercharge golem.

Doctornull
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#214 Post by Doctornull »

joebobjoe wrote:Getting into a storm warden and having a great time. I'm especially enjoying the various surges.
Yay! Please do write about your experiences with it.
joebobjoe wrote:Anyway would you be willing to do an optional conversion for the alchemists that makes the infusion line work like the surges instead of the current version where it's pick one or two to max and then completely ignore the rest of the line?
Take a look at http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=39347 :) DarkGod has already written a lot of it, with some luck it'll show up in the next revision and Alchemist will be more fun.
Check out my addons: Nullpack (classes), Null Tweaks (items & talents), and New Gems fork.

Orangeflame
Thalore
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#215 Post by Orangeflame »

It strikes me as odd that the Ascetic starts with only 2 skill points, but an unprecedented 7 generic points (Edit: for a Cornac).
When in trouble / or in doubt / run in circles / scream and shout.

Doctornull
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#216 Post by Doctornull »

Orangeflame wrote:It strikes me as odd that the Ascetic starts with only 2 skill points, but an unprecedented 7 generic points (Edit: for a Cornac).
Yeah Ascetic is odd.

When the next version drops, staves will see some changes, so I'll probably write a custom Staff class tree or two or the Ascetic. That will enable me to put points over on the Class side.
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KingInYellowTatters
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#217 Post by KingInYellowTatters »

Bleh. I only saw this forum AFTER I posted a comment next to the add-on itself. I'm kind of dumb. Anyhoo. Here's a copy of what I posted there, and at least I know about this forum for the future. It's just my thoughts and suggestions on the Fossil class.

*****

I really like the idea of a class catering to a skeleton's strengths, and I also like the idea of more unarmed specialist class variants. I do have a few suggestions though.

- Fossils, like base brawlers, start off with a point allocated to Armour Training that you just can't remove. For some physical classes, like Bulwarks, having points in this talent makes perfect sense. But here, just as with brawlers, it kind of bothers me, since both fossils and brawlers have access to the Technique/Mobility category, and could theoretically use the Mobile Defense talent to buff the defense of even light armor which they could wear basically. Combined with other defensive talents, such as evasion, the defenses of a brawler-type should be adequate for survival without needing to invest in Armour Training at all. So, in short, I think the starting point there should be placed into a less-permanent category so the player could reallocate it if they really wished. Combat Accuracy would be a decent choice.

- Pugilism is a fine category for this concept, but just like with base brawlers, it means that fossils earn combo points as a result of their maneuvers. Unlike brawlers, however, fossils simply do not have a set of finishing moves currently to actually DO anything with the combo points they collect. They just sit there uselessly on the side of the screen. Fossils could thus really benefit from a category unique to their own class containing their own personal finisher options. Furthermore, i suggest that this new talent category replace the existing Spell/Stone category on the list. Don't get me wrong. I actually approve of the earth association idea of the concept, but the "magic" they throw offensively at enemies should be more akin to Street Fighter-style Ki powers rather than mage-style casting. Thus, I think that the Stone spells should be slotted out, and the new finishing move category should have a stone-element flair in it's place. That way it both fulfills the geomantic magic theme and also acts as a sink for the combo points. Ironically, I think the Spell/Earth category that is also in the list is MUCH more generally useful and works fine as-is.

- Speaking of spells, the Spell/Temporal category doesn't really fit in as well with the elemental thematic and you can get most of the utilities it grants that would be useful for this class more easily through investing in other talents such as Combat Techniques. It just doesn't really seem worthwhile to go out of your way to get. Also, Technique/Magical Combat doesn't seem too bad at first blush, but it seems a little unnecessary with all of the other offensive melee options the class has. I have a recommendation for these as well: Replace these two categories with Stone Alchemy and Explosive Admixtures. This will once again play into the idea of the Earth/stone aesthetic (as well as the idea of manipulating a more raw and simplistic version of magic better for blending with fighting techniques), give the class the ability to augment their equipment with gems (though the Stone Touch talent is a nice potential combat option too)), and add a little bit more ranged and mass combat utility via the alchemical bombs, giving the fossils a few more tactical options. The one potential problem with that idea is that Stone Alchemy is a generic talent, and thus cuts into generic talent points. However, I think it balances out a bit due to 2 factors - 1. Unlike a full-on alchmist, the fossils will be able to make do with a lesser number of gems on-hand, due to their superior defenses and personal combat options, thus requiring less overall investment in Stone Alchemy's utilitarian talents. /2. I don't see the existing Combat Training category eating up a lot of talent points in its own right either. this class should be able to get by primarily via it's unarmed combat techniques and spell-like talents, rather than relying on other forms of weaponry. Most of the actual utility that can b drawn from Combat Training for this class comes in the form of, primarily, the Combat Accuracy talent, and to a lesser extent the armor and damage mitigation of Thick Skin though one could certainly take or leave those due to all of the other defensive talent options the class has access to. It may work out in practice or not, but I think it's an option at least worth experimenting with.

Anyhoo, once again. I still think it's a really cool base concept. I just think a few tweaks like these can make it all the better is all. Just my thoughts on the matter. Thank you. :)

Zaive
Archmage
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#218 Post by Zaive »

I think Flenser should probably have the cunning/survival tree. They're kinda rogue-ish already.
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Doctornull
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#219 Post by Doctornull »

KingInYellowTatters wrote:Bleh. I only saw this forum AFTER I posted a comment next to the add-on itself. I'm kind of dumb. Anyhoo. Here's a copy of what I posted there, and at least I know about this forum for the future. It's just my thoughts and suggestions on the Fossil class.
Ah thanks, I don't get notifications for posts over there, and I actually don't go there ever since the game allowed in-game add-on uploads :)
KingInYellowTatters wrote:- Fossils, like base brawlers, start off with a point allocated to Armour Training that you just can't remove. For some physical classes, like Bulwarks, having points in this talent makes perfect sense. But here, just as with brawlers, it kind of bothers me
That one point is necessary to allow them to use metal gauntlets. Taking it away would restrict them to leather gloves.
KingInYellowTatters wrote:- Pugilism is a fine category for this concept, but just like with base brawlers, it means that fossils earn combo points as a result of their maneuvers. Unlike brawlers, however, fossils simply do not have a set of finishing moves currently to actually DO anything with the combo points they collect.
Yeah this is a thing I need to add.
KingInYellowTatters wrote:- Speaking of spells, the Spell/Temporal category doesn't really fit in as well with the elemental thematic and you can get most of the utilities it grants that would be useful for this class more easily through investing in other talents such as Combat Techniques. It just doesn't really seem worthwhile to go out of your way to get. Also, Technique/Magical Combat doesn't seem too bad at first blush, but it seems a little unnecessary with all of the other offensive melee options the class has. I have a recommendation for these as well: Replace these two categories with Stone Alchemy and Explosive Admixtures.
Stone Alchemy is not a terrible idea (since Skeleton racials and Aegis are such strong options already), but I don't see much use to giving them Explosive Admixtures, which would just create Fire explosions.

Magical Combat and Stone go together. Getting rid of both would be fine, if they were replaced with something cool that did their job. Maybe I can tie their replacement tree in with Combo Points... hmm...

Thanks for the feedback!

Zaive wrote:I think Flenser should probably have the cunning/survival tree. They're kinda rogue-ish already.
Their lack of a need for Cunning is one major difference between the Flenser and most other dual-dagger guys :)
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Nagyhal
Wyrmic
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#220 Post by Nagyhal »

I've started a Dark Faerie Ascetic.

I love the fusion of so many quirky, low damage-output talent trees.

Putting a generic point in each of the Staff Mastery talents was an inspired touch. The activated abilities pale so much in comparison to the Advanced staff tree that I might be disinclined to bother with them at all, if you hadn't done that. And again, in the early game, if those points weren't there I might ignore staves entirely.

Dark Faerie's speed buffs and Fey Clone makes Channel Staff into a true dakka-dakka machine gun experience. While I'm probably not getting a feel for how the class can be a sort of "challenge" option, I'm definitely enjoying the resulting light show.

Orangeflame
Thalore
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#221 Post by Orangeflame »

Nagyhal wrote:Putting a generic point in each of the Staff Mastery talents was an inspired touch.
THAT'S why my Ascetics have a ton of generics to assign at spawn! I play with auto-assign points off - I never realized that was where they were coming from. :oops:
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Nagyhal
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#222 Post by Nagyhal »

THAT'S why my Ascetics have a ton of generics to assign at spawn! I play with auto-assign points off - I never realized that was where they were coming from. :oops:
I didn't realize you could turn off auto-assign! I'd guess that in this exceptional case, the current implementation of that will harm your play experience as I don't think it will let you put points back into the higher-tier talents.

Oh well, you're an Ascetic, you can always just try to live without that luxury :P

Doctornull
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#223 Post by Doctornull »

Orangeflame wrote:THAT'S why my Ascetics have a ton of generics to assign at spawn! I play with auto-assign points off - I never realized that was where they were coming from. :oops:
I'm sorry about your experience, but that's hilarious.
Nagyhal wrote:I didn't realize you could turn off auto-assign! I'd guess that in this exceptional case, the current implementation of that will harm your play experience as I don't think it will let you put points back into the higher-tier talents.
Even on classes which don't violate tree design by giving you 1/1/1/1 to start, you still get into situations like you're a Yeek Bulwark but you can't actually wear a shield because you won't have 20 Str for a long time so you won't qualify for Armor Training 2, or you're a Megaturtle Archmage and you can't take ANY TALENT until you somehow make it to 3rd level or find enough +Mag gear.

Turning off auto-assignment is basically asking the game to kick you in the nuts.
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Nagyhal
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#224 Post by Nagyhal »

Oh God, you're right. I didn't think that fully through.

Perhaps auto-assign could be adjusted not to remove the talents for which you do not qualify?

Doctornull
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Re: Nullpack 2014-03-18: Optional Enhancements

#225 Post by Doctornull »

Nagyhal wrote:Oh God, you're right. I didn't think that fully through.

Perhaps auto-assign could be adjusted not to remove the talents for which you do not qualify?
I'm not sure there's any good reason to have that feature in the current game. Maybe there was a reason for it in previous version, but it's not appropriate any more.

Either way, this thread is not the right place for this discussion.
Check out my addons: Nullpack (classes), Null Tweaks (items & talents), and New Gems fork.

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