Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

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kingcocomango
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 6:44 pm

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#91 Post by kingcocomango »

Maybe its because im running the game on linux? But that shouldnt be an issue...

Razakai
Uruivellas
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#92 Post by Razakai »

I'd be quite surprised if that was causing any problems. You're not the only one it's affected.

Nagyhal
Wyrmic
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:01 am

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#93 Post by Nagyhal »

Great design!

Just messing around with one now. Insane Roguelike, as usual, so no doubt I'll die pretty quickly. In any case, I'll let you know how I get on.

Anyway, I found a GW2 talent - Heartseeker. Nice! The following talent, Whirlwind also looks suspiciously familiar. And I'm not talking about the official ToME version of it.

Of course, stealth still needs fixing... gah!

Update:

The class has a really pleasing rhythm about it, during the lower levels. It's always important to test a class thoroughly at this stage and make sure the "feel" of the class is right from the very earliest stages. I like your Assassin because it encourages an easygoing, comfortable attack pattern of:
  1. Optional: Ready to engage the enemy, planting traps or wearing it down with poisoned throwing knives.
  2. Chop it up a bit in melee, using Dual Strike's stun to limit the damage you take.
  3. Disengage, and continue to wear it down at range with throwing knives. If you have to, finish it off with a trap!
The reason this is nice is because it doesn't require too many buttons, it feels different to the other classes, it feels minimal and low on flashy powers as befits a Rogue, and it allows for a bit of idle fun when it comes to positioning yourself to maximize the effect of traps, throwing knives and particularly Disengage. It's also a useful (and well-balanced) toolkit if you are going to be taking on uniques early on.

At this stage, it seems a shame to tie the class down to the original Rogue design, because there are still a few weak systems inherent in the engine that spoil the fun of this sort of class. They are:
  • Stealth, which has really weird rules for detection. Unaware enemies will still home in on your location.
  • Light armour, which is not particularly advantaged in any way. Thanks for trying!
  • Fatigue, which does nothing.
  • Defense, which isn't a particularly great system either.
  • Stamina, which is a boring resource with no enjoyable options for management. You have it, then you run out of it, and then it's bloody miserable 'cause you can do nothing.
Maybe I just need to carry on and level Soothing Darkness (regenerates Stamina while stealthed), Tempo (regenerates Stamina as you attack parried enemies) and the new Assassin's Armour Training (I'm guessing that at level 5 it will grant as much as 20-25 defense, which is not insignificant!)
Last edited by Nagyhal on Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Razakai
Uruivellas
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#94 Post by Razakai »

I tried fixing Stealth to be less rubbish and gave up in frustration. I think getting it working better would be it's own project entirely, so instead there's Shadow Dance to ignore the mechanics and have a few turns of guaranteed murder. When I actually have some time to code more I'll give Rogue some more polish, but the codebase for this addon is a bit of a mess compared to the cleaner approach I took with Bastion so I'll need to set a few days aside.
And yep, Whirlwind is Death Blossom without the bleed.

Nagyhal
Wyrmic
Posts: 282
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:01 am

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#95 Post by Nagyhal »

Fixing stealth is definitely a massive project!

grayswandir had some interesting ideas, and began work on a stealth rework addon - of course, this was before he mysteriously disappeared from the community... You can get a feel for the ideas that were flowing around here with this thread.

I'm going to try and level Stealth anyway because I'm playing one of astralInferno's stealthy Feling catfolk! Thanks for the cool class and I'll let you know how I get on :33

Radon26
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1439
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:50 am

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#96 Post by Radon26 »

my 2 cents for stealth...
1, don't turn it off, if talent is either instant, or used without witnesses.
if you have to, using a talent might cause stealth power penalty which quickly decays, like Reaver's frenzy
2, make it a passive instead of a sustain. stupid button, i am setting it on auto use anyway.

Razakai
Uruivellas
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#97 Post by Razakai »

Yeah, what I tried doing was making Stealth a passive. Making unstealthy actions would place a 'revealed' debuff on you for a few turns that would disable stealth bonuses until you were X tiles from an enemy. Was a bit buggy so I ended up removing the changes. Might revisit when I have time though.

Razakai
Uruivellas
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#98 Post by Razakai »

Quick v1.9 update - made Twist the Knife no_npc_use, and Dirty Fighting's secondary debuff is cross_tier.

Razakai
Uruivellas
Posts: 889
Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#99 Post by Razakai »

For anyone using this mod - as of next patch this will be discontinued. This is due to the changes listed over here:

http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=46390

croknight
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#100 Post by croknight »

Lethality doesn't appear to be working correctly with offhand weapon damage. I added the lines
if self:knowTalent(Talents.T_LETHALITY) then
offmult = math.max(offmult,self:callTalent(Talents.T_LETHALITY,"getoffmult"))
end
to combat lua under offhandmult. Worked for me. If anyone else needs it fixed just have to modify the combat lua there.

mikekchar
Halfling
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:55 am

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#101 Post by mikekchar »

I've been looking into stealth recently and I have a few ideas about how to improve it. I was thinking about doing an add-on to try the ideas, but kind of gave up on the idea due to this rework. However, if it still seems like it might be useful, I might carry on from where greyswandir left off.

The gist of my basic ideas:
  • Do what greyswandir suggests for the enemies homing in on you
  • Remove checkOldHit code for stealth and replace it with something that can be intuitively understood. All checks will be scaled on distance from the observer. Ideally use the new hit/saving throw code, but getting the balance right might be tricky.
  • Move check for being noticed to the end of the player's action. Completely remove "notices you at the last moment". This allows opponents to get a bearing on you, but not act until the next turn. If they are fast enough, they can attack you. If not, maybe you have moved on...
  • Whether the opponent has seen you or not, you never break stealth on your actions unless you fail unseen actions
  • Add a graphical indicator (highlighting the opponent) on each opponent that has spotted you the last turn. This allows you to try to distance yourself from opponents with high stealth detection easily.
  • Optionally thinking of having a saving throw against cunning for you noticing that the opponent has noticed you. i.e., it allows opponents with very high cunning to notice you, but not betray that they have noticed you. This might complicate the mechanics too much, though.
  • If an opponent has spotted you in the previous action and they manage to hit you (with anything), then your stealth breaks.
  • If an opponent has not spotted you but manages to hit you with a melee attack (not spell, and not ranged attack), then your stealth breaks. Of course if you have decent defence then getting hit while stealthed is unlucky, but this counteracts endless stealth without having to have bizarre mechanics in the stealth check.
  • Weaken Unseen Actions significantly. To be honest, I'm thinking scaling from 0.4-1.0. I don't see why Unseen Actions should ever be less likely to expose you than your normal stealth check (fine if it's for levels greater than 5). Again, this should be scaled by distance from the observer. Also, ESP should *not* be counted here (since Unseen Actions will break stealth). ESP will automatically allow an opponent to spot you anyway and they can simply break your stealth by attacking you.
I might be being naive, but I don't think the above will be that hard to implement. Famous last words ;-)

Edit: I just had another idea which is considerably more disruptive to the stealth tree: Remove both Hide in Plain Sight and Unseen Actions. Replace them with a passive (called SNAFU for now) that works very similarly to Tumble. Instead of breaking stealth every time you do a non-movement (which is kind of unintuitive anyway), just add a stealth check for it like normal. If you ever break stealth, SNAFU kicks in and allows you to tumble to some unoccupied location if there is one within range. At level 3 it resets stealth. At level 5 it automatically activates stealth (with normal stealth rules).

This would free up an extra space in the stealth tree. You could then move Sticky Smoke from the traps tree there (it really doesn't belong in traps).

Anyway, before I think too much about this, I should try this addon first ;-)

Hellcommander
Archmage
Posts: 362
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:43 pm

Re: Assassin - Complete Rogue Rework v1.8

#102 Post by Hellcommander »

Found an error:
Lua Error: ...addons/assassin/superload/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:34: attempt to call method 'getDex' (a nil value)
At [C]:-1 getDex
At ...addons/assassin/superload/mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:34 combatDefenseBase
At /mod/class/interface/Combat.lua:1219
At /mod/addons/PlenumTooltip/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:77 colorStats
At /mod/addons/PlenumTooltip/superload/mod/class/Actor.lua:303 tooltip
At /mod/class/uiset/Minimalist.lua:2035 on_mouse
At /engine/LogDisplay.lua:190 mouseEvent
At /mod/class/uiset/Minimalist.lua:1697 fct
At /engine/Mouse.lua:78

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