"Odyssey of The Summoner" is OUT!! Find it here...

[daed4]

I meant on higher than normal (which I'm bad at).

Also I just meant that my main difficulty problem is the lack of infusions, because I'm baddie!

[echo42]

I'm not really sure if there's any point in keeping this thread open, to be honest, if any feedback is going to be met with 'you're not playing the class right', 'you're just bad at the game' or 'you don't understand the (intentionally obfuscated) mechanics of the classes'.

[jenx]

I'm not really sure if there's any point in keeping this thread open, to be honest, if any feedback is going to be met with 'you're not playing the class right', 'you're just bad at the game' or 'you don't understand the (intentionally obfuscated) mechanics of the classes'.

I echo what echo42 says

if I get one more reply saying I"m doing something wrong or don't understand, I'll stop providing feedback.

so, one last time:

1. most of the serious payers of this game never play normal...just read the forums. if an addon can't function on nightmare, insane etc, it rarely gains longevity. (that said, i'm running normal just for the arena to get a feel for the class, something i always do.)

2. the lack of clarity around talent descriptions and mechanics I believe will hinder the value of this add-on, so I would encourage an improvement in this regard.

for example, you replied and said they "might" lose a head. you need to read your talent descriptions. the word might does not appear and it reads that they will always lose their head.

3. i've had characters with 50, 60, 70 on hits per hit. lots of classes have 3-4 hits per hit, times 2 for two weapons, with lots of items with effects. so as i and others have said, it is not a big advantage that you make out.

4. the mechanics for hydra bites is still impossible to work out. it goes up with physical power, but you said it doesn't. you said there is 25% boost, but i've got 50 wild power on current character and dmg on C sheet is unchanged. and i can't find anywhere where it says 25% boost.

[jenx]

poisons....

1. so, i am working on hydra to maximise poisons, and I unlock cunning poisons tree.

It says, "increases effectiveness of your poisons by X%" - this however makes no difference to the range of poisons you place through breath attacks from drool heads.

So it is kinda pointless. the description of the breath poison talents needs to state that the poisons receive no benefit from the Vile Poisons talent.

2. I have put points in Slyness and I activite it before each breathe attack whenever I can, but it never works. yet it says "your next attack will become venomous". this is either broken, or, the description needs to say "your next melee/combat attack will become venomous".

3. the amount of poison dmg for 3rd and 4th talents in Breath Hydra tree (Hydra Toxin and Hydra Coating) does not increase at all through further investment in points. so there is no point investing unless you want the other negative effects. This should be states in the description. That the dmg scales only off mindpower and not talent point.

4. sadistic calm doesn't work on three poisons, and this either should be fixed, or explained in the talent description: paralysed, sickened, excrutiated

i'll edit this as i find more facts about poisons... my point again is, it should not take this much experimentation and writing of numbers down to work out the most basic information about how a talent works, or doesn't work.

[daed4]

I'm not really sure if there's any point in keeping this thread open, to be honest, if any feedback is going to be met with 'you're not playing the class right', 'you're just bad at the game' or 'you don't understand the (intentionally obfuscated) mechanics of the classes'.

-'you're not playing the class right'
Factually wrong, unless you're playing above normal then it's okay because it's NOT balanced for anything but normal which can be argued as bullshit
-'you're just bad at the game'
This was never said I think, except with jenx but he wants the addon balanced for Insane which the maker said He won't do
-'you don't understand the (intentionally obfuscated) mechanics of the classes'
This one is - right. Jesus if this doesn't have obscure shit all around (Sorry, but this one is 100% true).

[echo42]

The former two were never directly stated, but when 90% of the criticism is deflected with 'a good point, but consider that I, a player of apparently average ability, have won this game with these classes multiple times' followed by a dozen laughing emoticons, it's not exactly difficult to read the sentiment.

[jenx]

having run dozens, possibly hundreds of hydras on normal/arena and insane/majayel, i think the class is actually fairly well balanced for insane actually. it feels just about right. my death rate is roughly the same as with other classes.

my feedback is all about what doesn't work, what is unbalanced in principle, and especially about what is not clear, confusing or impossible to work out.

look on the bright side, i have been somewhat bored with ToME and this addon had rejuvenated my interest

[astralInferno]

This is without a doubt the most amazing addon I've played.
But they have a point.

The most important thing a content creator needs to know is that your consumers are not going to play by your rules. If a dozen people are complaining about something, the answer isn't 'they're wrong and I'm right', it's that something somewhere is wrong.

...I'm not saying you should sacrifice your vision or anything. Just. If it's set in stone and no-one can deviate from it, people aren't gonna go for it.

On a slightly less overarching philosophy note, hidden information is something that some people love and others hate. It might be worth putting up some spoilers on another page (I would suggest a google doc) and linking to them in the OP. That way, people who want them can seek them out, and people that don't just won't click.
(...and the Really Really secret things can probably stay so. I'd usually compromise by saying 'you get the secret by doing X' but not telling them what it /does/. Or you could do the reverse. Or whatever! This is your show, you can ignore people if you really want.)
People can always code dive if they really want to.

And on a really, really minor note, you spelt subterranean wrong.

Finally, did you have to put in a backend to make the Lore entry show up in talents? It's a really cool idea and I want to add it to... everything.

[daed4]

Astral- if worst comes to worst, you can always unpack the teaa and code-search, but it's boring and feels cheating

[Razakai]

I'm curious how people playing on NM+ deal with status effects. My runs tended to end in the teens, as a randboss with more than 1 source of stuns would quickly kill me. No movement or wild infusions along with the lack of inbuilt status resists or cleanses felt like certain death. This was especially noticeable on Ritch, I don't think a single one got into T2 dungeons as you're basically a Rogue without stuns/inscriptions/traps to carry you through the early game.

Looking at the vault, nobody seems to have gotten past level 16 on one, so it does seem challenging.

[nekarcos]

@daed4
Admittedly, most of the Avatars mechanics are sorta... Insane.
This all said though, Avatars highly advanced, and they sort of beg for very knowledgeable players when used-- Which leads to a lot of frustration at first (and my apparently-unclear descriptions probably don't help).
"Multi-Heads" is a sort of crazy thing-- Something ToME doesn't support in ANY WAY, but I still contested to try anyways.
To keep a long explanation short: I'm still working on how to make these sorta wacky mechanics a little more understandable and approachable


@echo42
You have to understand ToME is a hard game, and I can't always respond to death and bad luck stories with immediate buffs. Dying and losing constantly is common in a Roguelike like this-- But "knowledge" and "experience" are supposed to help you get further. For example, any good player knows to avoid "that crypt" that pops up at Lv24 if you can't handle blight-based spellcasters, or... Don't go into Bill's Lair if you can't stand toe-to-toe with a strong melee. I don't intend to make these character so powerful that they never die (Hydra was pretty much exactly like that until I gave it some needed tweaks before release). These characters are designed to meet ToME with a more "strategic" approach-- But I will concede at one point: Their difficulty level is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than standard ToME characters. I can always see about how to tweak that.

... Also, please don't suggest things like closing the thread based on what you're reading. There are many silent viewers, so it's unfair to assume what everyone wants based on the voice of... What? Maybe 3 people...?

Finally, when I talked about winning with my character, those statements were supposed to come across as "encouraging", not "smug"
When I constantly tell you "I have beaten the game with so-and-so", I was expecting more of a "well, if he can do it, I can too"...
... But eh... Miscommunication is not exactly uncommon (especially on the internet), now is it?


@jenx
You have CONSTANTLY said "it's not clear" and stuff like that, but you haven't said which things are unclear or anything. The kind of feedback you're giving me is essentially "please make it better, I don't like it" and that's it.
If you need the clarity improved, a good start is telling me what is unclear and how I could clarify it-- But you never do this. You always go on some tangent about what's wrong with "my add-on" and how amazing you are at beating this game 100 times (but in "Offline" mode where ANYTHING could happen at all).

1. I am so tired of talking about this. Listen. MAYBE I will balance for nightmare and higher... AFTER it works on Normal mode???
2. It DOES NOT say they "always" lose a head. If you read it carefully, there are no "you will", no "always"... Nothing at all like that. It simply says: "X head is smitten by Ys and Zs, causing Q to happen". This is another case of you misreading things and blaming me for it.
... Although, I'll admit you're right about one thing: This is not "clear" at all... But, at the same time, "over-description" is a problem worse than "under-description"... I mean... Look at the talent description... It's ALREADY kinda textual overload at the moment...
3. "Hits" and "On-hit" are different. I have a feeling you're talking about bonus damage from special melee projections.
4. Stop using the character sheet. It DOES NOT reflect the damage of heads AT ALL. I think I've already said this to you, but AGAIN, you seem to have not caught that at all...
Furthermore, the nature of a head's bump damage is so random, knowing the exact numbers wouldn't really help you in the long run anyways. Just try attacking a few enemies, and you'll quickly understand what your damage output is.
*** Part 2
1. ... Please... "Cunning/Poisons" is a COMPLETELY different talent tree... Why would you think they would affect OTHER poisons in any way at all??
Furthermore, when it says "effectiveness of your poisons", it's talking about the former-mentioned "Poisons"... Not poison in general.
If you're wondering why the Hydra class has that talent tree at all... That's because it's coming from the Serpent race. I put it there so that the Serpent's racial talents aren't utterly useless when used by something other than Hydra. "Dragon" gets "Wild-Gift/Fire Drake Aspect" for fire damage, and Mantis gets "Techniques/Bloodthirst" for the ability to cause bleeds. To be honest, I really don't recommend using it on Hydra either because it's at x0.8 proficiency anyways, despite the synergy
2. Fair point.
3. The damage of the poison is a percentage of how much damage the breath itself caused. I'll see if I can somehow represent that without making the description any more complex.
Also, talent points only really improve the potency of the crowd-control effect it causes, and I'm pretty certain the talent description reflects that as well.
4. It doesn't? I'll look into that.

-- Also, that last message...
THANK GOD!! That's ALL I wanted to hear! Listen-- If playing these characters have drawn you back to ToME or anything like that-- I couldn't be happier. "Odyssey of The Summoner" intends for nothing more than to give you a fresh new "Age of Ascendancy" experience. However, keep in mind-- I wouldn't DARE call this a "finished project" or "a work of art". I have enough experience to know "beauty" is subjective.
All my effort after the release has been to make this into something we can "generally" call beautiful-- Not just myself. However, as the developer, supervisor, CEO, etc... whatever of this add-on, I intend to be VERY, VERY strict about its developmental direction, whether the community likes it or not. I WILL work with you, but I WON'T be coerced into making particular changes because "I'll stop providing feedback" or "the add-on rarely gains longevity".


@astralInferno
You guys aren't my "consumers", you're "individuals with invested interest"
That said though-- I still want to make something great. However, as I said before: "Criticism" is not so much what I'm after, because you're reviewing an unfinished product that I, myself, aren't even satisfied with. That is, you're stating the obvious, and getting me nowhere.

And ya-- I've been wondering about making a spoiler page or anything like that-- But, at the same time, I don't want to open up too much about what's in store for Odyssey of The Summoner for various reasons (particularly, it's a hype-killer if I reveal something, then force you to wait a whole month before I can implement it). That said, my HUGEST complaint about these forums is that there are no "spoilers" tags! I'd be throwing spoilers ALL OVER the place if there was something like that!
That all said-- Ya... I can't keep that many things a secret because it's also very easy for people to code dive. Afterall, I was foolish enough to document absolutely EVERYTHING
I had to strip a ton of comments from all of my files to prevent people from getting their hands on spoilers and such.

Oh. You wouldn't believe how long I spent trying to figure out what the correct spelling of "subterranean" was, and I STILL got it wrong

The lore thing is ultra simple

Code: Select all

class:bindHook("Actor:getTalentFullDescription", function(self, data)
	if data.t.lore then
		data.str:add({"color",0x6f,0xff,0x83}, "Lore: ", {"color","YELLOW_GREEN"}, data.t.lore(self, t), true)
	end
end)

... Then in the talent itself:

Code: Select all

lore = function(self, t)
	return "There are tales of a lumbering beast..."
end,

Note that I have some other special things in place so that lore displays selectively, so you might need to tweak it a bit.


@Razakai
Avatars have an UNGODLY, TERRIBLY HUGE weakness to stuns. However, I'm really not sure if I'm ready to call this a "weakness". Stuns in ToME tend to be lame-- But they're lame in an "equal-opportunity" way. However, that said though, I gave Ritch absolutely no stuns whatsoever in exchange for extremely-high, bloodletting, life-stealing damage.
Tell me... What do you think? Do you think ToME's difficulty was designed to operate with stun-cures and such? "Physical Wild Infusions" are completely optional, and there are various stun-resistance objects you can get... Plus, there's THAT item you get at the very end of the game...

... I dunno. I don't know how to call on Avatars' inherent stun weakness.


PS: I suggested to everyone that they play offline/cheat mode. Because of that, I'm not sure if the Character Vault correctly reflects the amount of people playing or the add-on's popularity. What it DOES show, however, is the confidence of very brave players-- And THOSE are the people I want to serve and cater to most.

[nekarcos]

4. sadistic calm doesn't work on three poisons, and this either should be fixed, or explained in the talent description: paralysed, sickened, excrutiated

I just remembered why this is.

If you have "Sadistic Calm", it's actually possible to chain these POWERFUL CC effects onto one another indefinitely because of how ridiculously long their durations are, basically rendering any poison-susceptible opponent whatsoever powerless. This is ESPECIALLY true for talents like "Sickening Mist" (since it actually uses the same "Sickened" effect).
Making them into "non-poisons" was actually a nerf I implemented a long time ago and forgot about-- Although, when inflicted by "Hydra Toxin", it performs an extra "poison-resist" check.
"Sickening Mist" causes "Fear Poison" damage, which also performs a special poison-check as well.

... Long story short, I might need to go out of my way to make it a little more obvious that they AREN'T actually poisons, per se

[Tinyshockwave]

As for your question about stuns/wild infusions, I think you are underestimating the power of stuns. While having a wild infestation is, technically, optional, you will find everyone recommends, strongly, you have a physical wild, on every character. This is primarily because of stuns. When you are stunned, you deal half the damage, three random talents go on cool down, AND nothing cools down for the duration. TOME is a talent focused game, which means this is HUGE. Wild infusions not only remove this, but also have the added benefit of removing cross-tier effects of the same kind, and reducing all incoming damage for a few turns, which isn't even why you needed it in the first place. That is just an extra benefit. As for THAT item you mention, assuming you're referring to a certain normal tome item that is incredible defense against stuns, while it is amazing, you are not guaranteed to get it, as far as I know. Dubuffs in general are a major mechanic in tome that everyone needs to pay close attention too. One of the reasons Shalore are so amazing is that Timeless lets you remove all debuffs, and cool down abilities, plus extending good effects. The undead , among some other problems, don't get wild infusion, and heat runes just aren't as good as wild infusions.

You also seem to be underestimating inscriptions as a whole. It can certainly be hard to see sometimes, but they are a surprisingly large and necessary part of a normal tome character. There is a very good reason it costs a whole cat point to use another one, after all. Inscriptions heal you, shield you, remove debuffs, and let you escape. Escapes are something the avatars have next to none of. Buzz off is like a weaker controlled phase door, and the Dragon can fly around a bit (admittedly I have no idea how useful that tree is, not must a drake player myself.) The Hydra has almost nothing. Normal tome characters get teleport, movement, phase door if there is really nothing else, and control ed phase door. Heroism lets you not die, and there are many avatar skills like that, but I worry about their usefulness when healing is so rare, I am afraid I'll just die anyways when the buff ends.

Now, all that being said, I want to make it very clear that I absolutely love this mod so far. I think the Hydra is really cool to play as, and you have done a great job with your goal of creating the experience of a "custom" monster to play as. I love the idea being a ravenous multi headed Hydra, eating everything smaller than me whole. I also want to make it clear I am not trying to steer you away from your concept, not that it would be any good if I wanted to. The idea of not having inscriptions is interesting, and I'd love to see it work out. It does let you have the "Wild power" mechanic (I think that's the right name?), and it's really fun to be a 1000 health behemoth at lvl 15, and I can't wait to be able grow into and absurd late game abomination. I just think it is important you understand how powerful infusions are and just what you are taking away by cutting off consistent use of them.

[nekarcos]

@Tinyshockwave
... Hmmm... You think so, huh...?
Alright! I've got a surprise for everyone in this next update. Let's try this out!

Avatars ARE still capable of "using" inscriptions, but you can only do it once.
Besides, "Natural Combat" is basically a watered-down set of Inscriptions that you don't need to find and are also automatically scaled up with your character.
They're also quite functional since they're all intended to "emulate" your favorite ToME inscriptions-- Just, without the "powerful" part about them...

There's still more to come, stay tuned. As soon as I've worked out all the kinks, we can start talking about the plot-- Or maybe where the Melee Avatars are currently...

[nekarcos]

"Odyssey of The Summoner" has been updated!! (Version 0.3.1)

*** Version: 0.3.1 ~ "Now with more luck, biting, and charisma!"

*** This update features 3 very important changes:
- "Rabbit's Foot" now only removes Physical effects, as well as ALWAYS removing cross-tier effects. We'll see if people will find this talent a little more appealing now that it's somewhat more consistent!
- The character sheet now describes (with MUCH detail) the damage and individual qualities of an Avatar's unarmed attack! This is the first step to adding more clarity to "OoTS".
- The Summoner should now operate correctly no matter where he is. I DEEPLY apologize if, for example, you became blighted and returned to The Summoner, only to find your pleas land on deaf ears

[General]
(CHANGES)
- The character sheet now describes "Natural Attacks". This is just one of many changes to come for improving the clarity of the Avatar's unarmed attacks.
*** This is a fresh new addition. I encourage people to find ways to break it (errors in the character sheet are harmless anyways!)
- "Slyness" now states that it will only function for "melee" attacks.
- "Hydra Toxin" now specifically states "maladies" are not "poisons" (despite checking poison resistance).
- "Hydra Toxin" now explains that the power of the malady is based on the power of the breath used.
- "Hydra Coating" now explains that the power of the reaction is based on the power of the breath used.
- "Sickening Mist" no longer refers to itself as "poison".
- Corrected spelling of "Subterranean". (mini-ahhhhhhh...)
- Moved A LOT of "Multi-Head" logic around. Hopefully, this doesn't bug anything out...
- "Rabbit's Foot" will now ONLY affect detrimental physical effects. However, in return, the chance of removing 0 effects is now ever-so-slightly higher.

(BUGS)
- The Summoner SHOULD now provide ALL of his services at ANY location (except the Battlefield, of course)
- Wild Power scaling for biting attacks now correctly caps at 100.
- Fixed a bug where "they" weren't displaying a message upon being spawned (my bad again)

[Hydra]
*** I have been convinced NOT to change the way on-hit effects work with multi-attacks. With that said, I hope that this is not abused too badly...
(BUFFS)
- Tweaked the "Rapid Attack" code ("Tear Apart" and standard biting attacks). The penalty for multiple attacks is now more consistent (higher damage in general)
- "Feral heads" will no longer increase the rapid-attack penalty (in layman's terms: Hydras with "Feral" heads deal more damage now)
- "Underdog" now rounds up its bonus (slightly less "wacky" numbers, such as +3.1415 Cunning)
- "Tear Apart" will now only shuffle head priorities if you actually have Feral heads (improving damage consistency)

(BUGS)
- Heads that (for some reason) do not attack will no longer increase multi-attack count.
- Some corrections to "Tear Apart" behavior.

[Fire Drake]
(BUFFS)
- Fire Drake (and its Drakelings) now have newer, stronger damage calculation for their biting attacks; They are SIGNIFICANTLY stronger.
*** These changes will apply as soon as you enter the Wilderness

[Ritch]
(BUFFS)
- "Stings" now have 10% Wild Power scaling (from 1 damage power).