Playable Vampires

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astralInferno
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Re: Playable Vampires

#16 Post by astralInferno »

Ymirok wrote:Shouldn't they have a big weakness to Light damage? It's something all enemy vampires share. Then again, it's not my mod, just a suggestion! :P
They do, actually! =D
They have -15% light resistance, and +15% cold/darkness resist.
(Sunwalkers have -Darkness, +light/fire)

astralInferno
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Re: Playable Vampires

#17 Post by astralInferno »

The Sunwalker's first talent was accidentally called SUNWALKER. It is no longer using cruise control for cool.

Dracos
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Re: Playable Vampires

#18 Post by Dracos »

Glancing at it, haven't tried.

It seems a lot of the abilities have level 5 effects (Which is actually kinda cool, though clearly exposing what they are is very nice to do. People asking in threads what they do is a sign it could be more clear). This though makes it difficult to loop in for many types of builds. Shalore for instance usually dips in the 8-12 points of usage. Same with Thalore. Truthfully, this is a good expected ceiling of investment on most trees. Things built that it really goes to maximum synergy in the 15-20 point spend are just very devoted setups and on races significantly reduce the range of playable classes (or playing with that synergy).

Perhaps the treat as human could be a 2-3 thing. Truthfully, I'd move most of those to tier 3, making them more accessible in the 20-30 range to start having the extra trees (that will then need more points to use).

It seems a neat concept, if very point heavy and magic build heavy (This synergizes heavily with mage types it looks like). I'd instantly go necromancer too, though it does seem the neat advantage might be minions without necromancer... but those tend to need ranged to not get in the way. Will give it a try at some point.
ToME Tips - auto-generated spoilers for ToME. - someone else made. I find super awesome, so spreading as well.

astralInferno
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Re: Playable Vampires

#19 Post by astralInferno »

You might be right about some of those suggestions. I'll consider them for sure.
I tend to play using OP bonus point addons, so this isn't a problem I'd normally notice.

ghostbuster
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Re: Playable Vampires

#20 Post by ghostbuster »

On the sun vampire, the ultimate point in master of light concerns the talent tree "celestial/glory".
But this tree does not exists AFAIK.

Thexare
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Re: Playable Vampires

#21 Post by Thexare »

That's a tree in the Midnight addon

astralInferno
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Re: Playable Vampires

#22 Post by astralInferno »

thexare has it right. there wasn't an appropriate category to grant outside of midnight, and really, midnight is amazing and everyone should be using it >>

astralInferno
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Re: Playable Vampires

#23 Post by astralInferno »

I found out why there's a ghost vampire tree, I think!
Core ToME has a vampire tree, but with no talents in it.

sajberhippien
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Re: Playable Vampires

#24 Post by sajberhippien »

First off, I want to say I really really like the thematics of this mod, and I don't mind that you have to invest greatly to get the additional categories (as extra unlocked categories is fairly powerful). In a way, the race becomes a semi-class in that you can invest a lot to get a lot in return and also access various other skills requiring even more investment. However, I have a few questions and comments - meant as constructive criticism, not chastisement.

First off, is there any purpose at all to learning Lichform? It seems weird otherwise for a racial ability to grant a skill that the race has literally no use of at all.

Secondly, I have to note that it seems possible to abuse the re-distributable points in order to access categories without investing in the racial skills fully.
Example: Say I have 2 free class points and 4 free generic points, and level 1 Vampire and level 1 Cold of the Grave. I can then do this:
Raise Vampire to 5, put a point in Blurred Mortality, lower Vampire to 1, raise CotG to 5, put a point in Will o' Wisp, drop CotG to 1, spend the 4 generics wherever I want.
EDIT: After testing, I realize this was slightly incorrect, since you need to leave and reenter the leveling screen you need to invest two points each into vampirism/cold of the grave rather than one. Still, a wonky mechanic that gives mechanical benefits to redistributing points.

Thirdly, Mockery of Life is kind of strange. It says that you sink your teeth in, yet having a big axe improves the damage. It's also an instant-speed high-damage attack which seems hard to balance? I'm not good enough at the game to say that this is OP or anything, it just seems off and I can't think of many other abilities with similar concept. Seems like perhaps the damage should be based on level rather than weapon damage, as that can be easier to balance with the instant speed, and makes more sense?

Fourthly, the level requirements for the skills are slightly off; right now they are 1/4/8/12, but the standard for racials is 1/8/16/24.

Lastly, it seems weird that Will o' the Wisp and Undeath Link comes before Necrotic Minions, as the first skills don't work without the last.

Perhaps the approach should be slightly different so as to prevent these issues? Two suggestions, one simpler and one more complex, but perhaps better:

1. Make the granted categories locked. This means getting access to them is an investment and bypasses the issue of juggling points to get them cheap. This only solves the second issue though; lichform and will o' wisps are still weird.

2. Separate the specific, most vampiry skills into a few new trees, granted unlocked at specific levels, but disallow removing points from the skills that unlock powers the same way Master of Death does. This could also allow some custom combinations to include some of the skills mentioned by other posters previously (or rather, copies of them, potentially renamed). Master of Death would however need some inherent bonus too. Lastly, making each tree slightly shorter (to 3 talents) would make sense, as it's shit a huge load of skills and too much can feel like just empty filler. My suggestion would be something like this:

Vampirism (lvl1) - Focuses on the personal, bodily power granted by being a vampire. As the current, but at 5 unlocks Power of the Grave which contains Light of Foot, Vampiric Gift, and Nimble Movements.

Mockery of Life (lvl8) - Remains as it is, but has damage based on level instead of weapon.

Cold of the Grave (lvl 16) - Remains as now, but at level 5 unlocks Chilling Calm, containing Keen Senses, Heightened Reflexes and Chill of the Tomb.

Undying (lvl 24) - Allows survival below 0 hp like Blurred Mortality, but passively and at 80% of the effect. At 5 grants Master of Death which grants Create Minions, Undeath Link and Circle of Death.

This would mean instead of giving carte-blanc access to necromancy in general (up to 5 trees plus the racial!), it would give access to 9 specific abilities tied to vampirism, and that are more varied (and also more passives and sustains, which I think is good as to not overclutter the gameplay).

P.S: If you rename the tree to Vampirism, wouldn't that get rid of the empty bug category?

astralInferno
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Re: Playable Vampires

#25 Post by astralInferno »

Well, first off, thanks for both the attention and the compliments!

I do have answers for most of them, and I think they're good answers, but I may be being subconsciously affected by my desire to not put in more work.

Lichform is in fact pointless for them. This is a great shame shared by all undead necromancers. I might have not given them that category, but blurred mortality is specifically a talent you see vampire NPCs using, and I wanted to keep that. I'd be nice if an alternative top talent for Necrosis could be made for natural undead, but I'm not sure how you could code that.

@This is probably doable. :( Most likely, I should just make all of their racial talents non-unlearnable to prevent this.

Mockery of Life is taking it's cues from a canon talent; the Wyrmic's Swallow, which also deals weapon damage (and more of it, too.) The damage nerf was why I ended up making Mockery instant, iirc, as it was often underwhelming when used as an entire turn, especially on the spell-based characters the race implies. It was also probably a desire to make it more /different/ from swallow, and losing damage in order to do it faster seemed cool. Probably it should be half a turn instead of no time? not sure.
Basing the damage on level would make it easier to balance, but much, much, much, much, much worse. Perhaps more importantly, there aren't any damage scalings that work that way that I can borrow, iirc.

The standard for racials is 1/8/16/24, but the standard for UNDEAD racials is 1/4/8/12. :wink:

I'm v used to Necromancy+ giving Will O The Wisp an on-spell wisp summon effect, so I may not have considered that as an issue. The same addon moves Undeath Link away to necrotic minions, so I may have the same excuse there. Honestly, I so rarely go for minions and so often build adventurers that I'm v used to taking a couple of dummy talents to get at the stuff I'm actually after.
There's also, as an excuse that may actually be accurate, the fact that those categories are the ones that match onto the talents. The first talent is just about being undead, so it gives blurred mortality, the third is about being cold, so grave, and only on the fourth are you /controlling/ death.

Honestly, the ability to play a necromancer while being in a different class is one of my favourite things about the race. I'm pretty loathe to change it.

PS: Yes, but racial (including undead) categories are /always/ just named with the race's name.

Nagyhal
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Re: Playable Vampires

#26 Post by Nagyhal »

Dracos wrote:It seems a lot of the abilities have level 5 effects (Which is actually kinda cool, though clearly exposing what they are is very nice to do. People asking in threads what they do is a sign it could be more clear). This though makes it difficult to loop in for many types of builds. Shalore for instance usually dips in the 8-12 points of usage. Same with Thalore. Truthfully, this is a good expected ceiling of investment on most trees. Things built that it really goes to maximum synergy in the 15-20 point spend are just very devoted setups and on races significantly reduce the range of playable classes (or playing with that synergy).
Strongly disagree with this one, Dracos, though you make a well-considered point!

I think this style of talent tree promotes a lot of different 'viable' outcomes, which is better than having one typical, safe and decent 8-12 point load-out that everyone goes for. 5/1/1/0 or 1/3/5/5 or 1/5/1/3 or indeed 5/5/5/5 are all viable and useable and each suggests a highly different build strategy! Because the Necromancy trees are a mix of utility and spellcasting and minion-raising, often with only small syngeries between one another, one can be useful without unlocking the others. It's a design that really lets you feel you are being original with your build choices, and I love when that happens.

This certainly isn't one of those "You must 5/5 every talent or not bother at all" trees like Shadows or something.

This tree has a kind of "brake" built into the synergy factor, too, in that the more categories are unlocked the more of a massive investment you have to make in class points. Invest heavily into a couple of these and you can't really be good at the things your class was supposed to be good at any more.

Though when it comes to Vampires, I could be doing it wrong. Maybe I just don't love the Necromancy trees as much as many of you? :cry:

Anyway, astralInferno, all I have to say to you is that if you want to know how to lock-in a talent investmest once you get to TL5, you know where to find me :mrgreen:

Dracos
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Re: Playable Vampires

#27 Post by Dracos »

Eh, I've seen races that do make it work, but it just generally isn't a great idea on 'race' trees (more than most other trees), because then being a good 'x' race conflicts fairly much with being a good 'y' class.

On generic or class trees, go wild. But on racial trees having several 'go to 5' rewards is encouraging a lot of investment (or more discouraging lower investment).
ToME Tips - auto-generated spoilers for ToME. - someone else made. I find super awesome, so spreading as well.

astralInferno
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Re: Playable Vampires

#28 Post by astralInferno »

That's kind of intentional? If you're a vampire, you can invest heavy in being a vampire, which is synonymous with investing heavy in being a necromancer. You can't, sans REALLY generous +points addons, do that and invest in your normal class. You pick and choose.

Border42
Low Yeek
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Re: Playable Vampires

#29 Post by Border42 »

So. Interesting thing to note (that I haven't seen mentioned in the comments before) is that taking points into and out of, at least for Cold of the Grave's last point and Master of Death's first, causes you to continuously benefit from the improved categories. Over. And over. And over.

It causes some quite silly situations.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.c ... DEC662225/

Of note I do have an addon that adds an additional stat, talent, and generic point each level activated. I don't know if that might have caused it.
Last edited by Border42 on Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

astralInferno
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Re: Playable Vampires

#30 Post by astralInferno »

see, that's what the 'can't be unlearnt' bit is meant to prevent. X_x

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