Everything is Unique

[StarKeep]

Both are showing 100% fine on my side.

Try a fresh install of the game and addons.

[tilkau]

I'm curious, what settings do you think are realistic for Everything is Unique, StarKeep?

I've tried Level Based and Custom (with various values ranging 2-12) but don't really feel that I'm picking something appropriate -- Most extra uniques that appear are a reasonable challenge, but there always seem to be a few that are ultra curbstompers. Depending on their talents and the distance through the game, I may not even be able to run away from them (they have a draw-in type talent, or put my talents on cooldown, or I don't have a teleport rune yet), and I generally die in short order.

Context: I can get to level 20 reasonably reliably, but haven't yet won the game. Mainly playing classes that I've heard promoted as simple or newbie appropriate (Alchemist, Summoner. Also Transcendent Fist, a Brawler-ish addon class).

[StarKeep]

I'm afraid some classes are simply not Uniques compatible.

You require good mobility so you can instantly cheese it from npcs. Even the strongest class can eventually meet it's match against a terrible combination.

My best offer would be to play on 'Easy' option (Unique's difficulty option, not the main game), and at 'Double' Rate, and play an Archmage for a while.

Once you get used to avoiding and scouting foes like they have the plague, give a shot at a class with lesser mobility.

[cctobias]

I'm afraid some classes are simply not Uniques compatible.

You require good mobility so you can instantly cheese it from npcs. Even the strongest class can eventually meet it's match against a terrible combination.

My best offer would be to play on 'Easy' option (Unique's difficulty option, not the main game), and at 'Double' Rate, and play an Archmage for a while.

Once you get used to avoiding and scouting foes like they have the plague, give a shot at a class with lesser mobility.

Or play a relatively balanced (in power) with a versatile set of abilities Adventurer.

The fact is the various classes are not always made with a good coverage of counters in mind. But although Adventurers are consider OP, in fact most people's attempts at Adventurers are not any more OP than an Oozemancer and many people's adventurers are downright bad.

[tilkau]

StarKeep:

Hm. I could definitely stand to improve my running-away skills (though they do mostly seem to have carried over from DCSS okay). Overall, I'm getting the impression that even a fantastic ToME player can get destroyed by EverythingIsUnique if the build they're running isn't flexible enough? That's kind of disappointing, I was hoping I could use it to generally relieve the tedium of mowing through popcorn enemies.

cctobias:
Yes, I'm getting the impression that build is a pretty major, and moderately complex, issue in ToME (which is a bit different from what I'm used to with DCSS, where build is still pretty major but not complex)

[StarKeep]

Overall, I'm getting the impression that even a fantastic ToME player can get destroyed by EverythingIsUnique if the build they're running isn't flexible enough?

Almost.

The catch here is that 'fantastic' ToME players won't pick classes that don't have the tools they need to work with. (See Insane+)

There is almost no way for an addon like this to function on classes without escapes, or limitless defensive options, purely due to how random things can possibly get.

By choosing to play on a harder difficulty/mode, you are essentially forced to use less builds until eventually you are down to only a handful that are viable. (See Madness)


Uniques slightly opens up the builds compared to Insane+, but not in a wide enough scope to enable everything to be viable.


Edit: I could possibly give the player a scouting tool and targetable teleport of some form on spawn to open up more builds, but that might just end up causing more boredom than anything.

[cctobias]

Overall, I'm getting the impression that even a fantastic ToME player can get destroyed by EverythingIsUnique if the build they're running isn't flexible enough?

Almost.

The catch here is that 'fantastic' ToME players won't pick classes that don't have the tools they need to work with. (See Insane+)

There is almost no way for an addon like this to function on classes without escapes, or limitless defensive options, purely due to how random things can possibly get.

By choosing to play on a harder difficulty/mode, you are essentially forced to use less builds until eventually you are down to only a handful that are viable. (See Madness)


Uniques slightly opens up the builds compared to Insane+, but not in a wide enough scope to enable everything to be viable.


Edit: I could possibly give the player a scouting tool and targetable teleport of some form on spawn to open up more builds, but that might just end up causing more boredom than anything.

Maybe give them an extra infusion slot? Max goes to six and you start at 4.

[cctobias]

StarKeep:

Hm. I could definitely stand to improve my running-away skills (though they do mostly seem to have carried over from DCSS okay). Overall, I'm getting the impression that even a fantastic ToME player can get destroyed by EverythingIsUnique if the build they're running isn't flexible enough? That's kind of disappointing, I was hoping I could use it to generally relieve the tedium of mowing through popcorn enemies.

cctobias:
Yes, I'm getting the impression that build is a pretty major, and moderately complex, issue in ToME (which is a bit different from what I'm used to with DCSS, where build is still pretty major but not complex)

Well in TOME 4 I would say you can plan out 90% of your build.

In DCSS I dunno, maybe 50%? That really depends, melee are actually easier to execute your plan. I mean a Trog Berserker that uses axes is pretty reliable. But most mage types, you really just can't quite plan on being a fire mage because of the way spellbooks work you may never find the spell you need. And even if you find the thing you need but find it way later then you may have basically had to branch out into something else to get there.

[tilkau]

Well in TOME 4 I would say you can plan out 90% of your build.

In DCSS I dunno, maybe 50%? That really depends, melee are actually easier to execute your plan. I mean a Trog Berserker that uses axes is pretty reliable. But most mage types, you really just can't quite plan on being a fire mage because of the way spellbooks work you may never find the spell you need. And even if you find the thing you need but find it way later then you may have basically had to branch out into something else to get there.

Yeah, DCSS emphasizes adaptability. I guess I'm just trying to express that IME in ToME it's a lot easier to skill in a way that results in a sort of power dead-end, and the only way I've found to escape that is trial and error. (and more recently, NullTweaks' custom respec option) ToME feels.. more spoily? Like I need advance knowledge of synergy between skills to make a good build, no matter how much I try to plan it. Whereas in DCSS I can usually manage something solid with whatever happens to come up. ToME definitely has more 'moving parts' to its skill system, if you know what I mean.

+1 on the extra infusion slot. Outright giving the player the tools they need seems boring and somewhat counterproductive.
(I was thinking of a mild infravision boost, myself .. but your idea seems better)

[Gunthar]

Both are showing 100% fine on my side.

Try a fresh install of the game and addons.

The game is a complete fresh install. I noticed that the "Everything is unique" is there but the "Added difficulties" not.

The Everything is unique is not shown in the add ons but its configuration options are available in game.

[cctobias]

Well in TOME 4 I would say you can plan out 90% of your build.

In DCSS I dunno, maybe 50%? That really depends, melee are actually easier to execute your plan. I mean a Trog Berserker that uses axes is pretty reliable. But most mage types, you really just can't quite plan on being a fire mage because of the way spellbooks work you may never find the spell you need. And even if you find the thing you need but find it way later then you may have basically had to branch out into something else to get there.

Yeah, DCSS emphasizes adaptability. I guess I'm just trying to express that IME in ToME it's a lot easier to skill in a way that results in a sort of power dead-end, and the only way I've found to escape that is trial and error. (and more recently, NullTweaks' custom respec option) ToME feels.. more spoily? Like I need advance knowledge of synergy between skills to make a good build, no matter how much I try to plan it. Whereas in DCSS I can usually manage something solid with whatever happens to come up. ToME definitely has more 'moving parts' to its skill system, if you know what I mean.

+1 on the extra infusion slot. Outright giving the player the tools they need seems boring and somewhat counterproductive.
(I was thinking of a mild infravision boost, myself .. but your idea seems better)

Yes, obviously, this is highly dependent on how a class is setup, but some classes like Marauder/Berserker are hugely dependent on one talent(Unstoppable) and that is in a locked line. As basically the signature thing that makes them even considered to try for a Madness win you would think its part of the default trees but it not.

Not only is it possible to gimp yourself, some classes are setup in a way they actually make it seem like something that is required to not gimp you is actually "optional".

But DCSS doesn't even have talents so the analogy kind of falls apart. Its only for spells that it would really hold much water. Comparing melee in the two games is almost pointless, bump attack is a much more fundamental thing in DCSS. Existence of melee talent-like things would almost certainly completely screw up the entire game. For the spells some suck and some are good much like talents. That kind of relates in some way and some are uber such as Haste or can radically change a play style. But I dunno its even hard to say "gimped" in DCSS in the same way as for TOME 4 because I mean a TOME 4 marauder can always take Unstoppable so since its a choice with no real practical options yes you gimp yourself if you don't take it. In DCSS there is always the concern of "Well I didn't find that so meh."

Its like in one game you can gimp yourself. In the other game you have a christmas list of things you would like.

[StarKeep]

Everything is Unique - Bugsplat Edition 2
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Updated on Workshop
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Fixed a long-standing bug which could result in stats being set to 0 or NaN.

[tilkau]

Everything is Unique - Bugsplat Edition 2
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Updated on Workshop
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Fixed a long-standing bug which could result in stats being set to 0 or NaN.

Player stats?
Great if so, because I was encountering this far too frequently (with armour->NaN and accuracy->0). I worked around it by editing the values in the savefile, but that probably caused te4.org to flag the save as suspicious.

[Planetus]

I've been playing around with this a bit lately, and while I love the idea, I think I've found a problem (possibly just with me, as I'm running several mods). I've got difficulty set to Normal (both in the addon and the game), and the extra classes and levels set to minimum (2 and 3 respectively), but I'm seeing level 6 randbosses in the first level of a starter zone (no problem so far, 3+3=6, ok), who have 26 total talent points assigned (... that's 6 talent points per level), and have talents that they're under-leveled for (like Thunderstorm).

Is it possible that talent points, and effective levels for talent unlocks, are being awarded for each class? Is this intentional? If so, it seems like a real show-stopper for anyone using this on lower levels. It's also something that isn't really explained anywhere.

[Red]

Can you explain in the OP how exactly the dificulties work? They aren't very clear on how they change the game.