Grappler class addon: curious about interest

[cctobias]

I am considering making an addon to add a Grappler class.

I have not fully fleshed out the design but its not going to use the mechanics of the grappling tree in brawler. I a have been grappling (wrestling) since I was 6 years old and into adult years (jiu-jitsu) and that tree is just wrong to me on a lot of ways.

Anyway this would most likely be the inverse (I think that the right verse) of brawler in that there would be a striking line (Atemi-waza) that could generate combo points but slower than brawler and then the other lines would be grappling focused (ne/katame-waze, nage-waza, escapes&counters) and as a mechanic I am considering using something I would call positional advantage which the Atemi-waza line could be used to initiate/enhance (but not progress). Further there would be an interaction with armor, striking is poor for armor and the nage-waza(throws) would have extremely high armor penetration or some other way to represent their traditional useage against armored opponents.

I would disregard clinch breaking mechanics of the current grappling line, as this is not the way you would actually fight and things such as knee mounting correctly can allow you the keep positional advantage and still strike someone nearby. Various things not yet designed would reduce your clear your positional advantage. Positional advantage would proably be a debuff rather than a buff like combo points.

Edit: part of the plan is that this is still a using gloves as main damage source. You strike something with an atemi-waza opening and gain some positional advantage (kuzushi: the breaking of structure, lit. demolition), this enahnces a throw (nage-waza) or attempt at a grapple (katame-waza) or you do a devastating katame-waza after the throw. A katame-waze could be a limb-break or it could be a pinning move. The pinning move would have the effect of pinning (obviously) but its main use would be to enhance your striking damage, i.e. the mount ground and pound seen in UFC. So in the end this is still a striker, something like 50/50. But with a grappling focus and main strategy for obtaining an advantage.

The only combo point usage tree I would add is the existing Unarmed discipline tree (probably locked).

Anyway this is not the design doc its just something give an idea.

Let me know if there is any real interest in this idea. I will post a design doc later if there is. There will be no coding until there is a design doc.

[NemesisZeru]

Ooh, sounds fun. As a big fan of Haunted(Hate using grappler class addon from a while back), I'd love to see a class that makes Grappling a bit more...viable. x3

[astreoth]

yeah this sounds pretty awesome so you have my intrest

[cctobias]

Ok cool, I know themuffinthief was also interested.

I will write up a preliminary design, which will mostly be speccing out talent trees. This will probably take a week and I will post it in this thread

I need to do some thinking about interactions.

Some things are somewhat simple for example I was considering creating a blindfight talent that gave you telepathy/all in range 1-5 (maybe only 1-3) when you are blinded and only when blinded.

Other things I need to flesh out more as I was thinking of having interactions between types of things in a sort of process flow with options. I am using Judo/ju-jitsu japanese terms for technique categories because Judo is extremely systematic and therefore pre-made for this.

So, for example, Atemi(striking)-waza(technique) would have something like

Double Tap
This is a double strike analog. It hits twice for slightly less damage than double strike, probably a very small initial hit and a harder second one, maybe 20% and 130% at max. The first "hit" is a soft grabbing/countering move to establish your "stickyness" to the opponent. It will generate 1 combo pt (and never 2) and gates the next two talents. This is a low CD as well, something like 3 just as DS has.

Outside Line
Requires double tap to initiate. You take the outside line(you are positioned on the outside of their arm with you chest to them and almost shoulder to shoulder with a "sticky" grip on their arm or other analogous part) on your opponent and strike them in a vital area (kidney, point on side of face, rip out a piece of ooze, knee on a giant etc). 1 combo point, 1 position advantage. Enhances Reap and Sweep from the Nage-Waze line. This may have no CD since they depend on DT. This may have some defensive effect not sure, its very hard to get the leverage to strike someone on the outside without repositioning the arm control makes repositioning and twist very challenging and allows katame-waza

Inside Line
Requires double tap. You take the inside line on your oppoent following up with a vicisous knee strike, similar to a muay thai clinch but softer since you intend to transition. 1 combo point, 1 positional advantage. Enhance Hip Throw and Ass over Teakettle Ippon from Nage-Waze.

Some tier 4 move
dunno yet, maybe something to do with grip fighting, or a passive enhncner



Anyway the Enhances Reap etc part needs to be nailed down this will either be quicker progression of positional advantage or extra effects. For example I may add the Axe Kick concussion effect onto "Ass over Teakettle Ippon" (Tier 4 throw) only when you have initiated Inside Line or possibly a simple damage enhancer or some combination. Most throws would be usable immediately but may lack an effect or do less damage without some sort of setup. Katame-waza (grapple) or ne-waza (ground) would be one line probably and would require an opening of some sort. Many techniques can be done standing or on the ground for example the Kimura should lock has variants either way, this is represented by allowing some Katame-waza to be initiated from taking the Inside/outside line or after a throw. These would be affected by positional advantage and would be roughly analogous to striking "finishers". However the mechanic will differ in that some things will clear positional and advantage and some will decrement it. This is roughly based on the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu scoring system. In other words a choke often does not give up a dominant position, but going for an arm bar often can.

Throws would be a combination of hard hitters and the middle progression of positional advantage, but also have positional advantage. Throws would be able to be initiated with no requirements but be weak without some initial setup. This would be to represent the idea of kuzushi, the demolition of an opponents natural protective structure. They would not require positional advantage like a katame-waza and would never reduce it only advance it, but would be mostly only useful as an iniating attack either the establish a positonal advantage or for some effect they may have. Thus you have the option use Double Tap +throw on one guy for a devastating attack and then throw+katame-waza on another guy as your DT is on CD. On a boss you may DT -> inside line -> throw (max positional)-> Choke(Katame, silence,lose one positional advantage) -> Mount transition (katame gain 1 positional advantage) -> Limb Break (Katame, use all positional advantage, massive damage and cripple).

The trick with this is to make the idea of establishing dominant position not make boss fights ramp up to you attaining real ultimate power with no real counter and just become the same combo that kills everything and makes them into weak little flabby men every single time. So I need to engineeer in some progression ebb and flow.


There will be no size limits. The way I would handle this is you have the same effect but maybe a different text message. This means you would knee mount an orc and back mount a giant. Obviously a giant is very hard to suplex but a giant would be extremely easy to climb up and pound the living crap out of the their neck. The talents will reflect this. Therefore which particular move you do will depend, you may armbar an orc and break their arm or rip a section of ooze off, but it would be the same talent with similar effect. I may, if I feel like getting complex, make certain ancillary effects based upon this. In other words a "ground and pound" katame-waza talent may be a pin effect on an orc and maybe a stun on a giant but both would be a duration 5 180% damage enhancer to bump attacks in either case. I have to consider whether such a thing is a good idea, in that adding funny cases like this is cool but hard to keep track of and balance or could simply be pointlessly redundant.

[themuffinthief]

Definitely interested, and I would be happy to playtest/discuss. I Don't know enough about wrestling to give input on design though.