Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Moderator: Moderator
Vanguard Class v1.0.0
This add-on incorporates a new class into the game: Vanguard.
http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/vanguard-class
Vanguards focus on close quarters combat and have access to many of the same base talent trees that are available to Warriors.
As a Vanguard takes damage, his offense and defense are drastically increased, leading to a precarious, but highly-rewarding, balancing act as he tries to stay as close to death as possible without embracing it.
I would not say this is an intuitive or easily-played class, as it is easy to under- or over-estimate your capabilities. However, the rewards for learning to master this class are well worth the risk.
Most of the Vanguard's skills scale exponentially with the amount of health he is missing, and all talents which follow this scaling method have a note at the very bottom of the description which provides example benchmarks to provide a sense of the scaling. Please note that the values used for these examples (30/60/90) are just that: examples. They are not coded limits/minimums.
In terms of missing health, there are no goals to shoot for, such as 10%/20%/etc, as the scaling is exponentially continuous. This means that missing 73.4% of your health will result in higher bonuses than missing 72.9%, and so on.
If there is anything you would like clarified, questions and comments can be asked here, or if you prefer they can be directed to tome.vanguard@gmail.com, or you can sometimes find me in the ToME irc channel as JSands.
http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/vanguard-class
Vanguards focus on close quarters combat and have access to many of the same base talent trees that are available to Warriors.
As a Vanguard takes damage, his offense and defense are drastically increased, leading to a precarious, but highly-rewarding, balancing act as he tries to stay as close to death as possible without embracing it.
I would not say this is an intuitive or easily-played class, as it is easy to under- or over-estimate your capabilities. However, the rewards for learning to master this class are well worth the risk.
Most of the Vanguard's skills scale exponentially with the amount of health he is missing, and all talents which follow this scaling method have a note at the very bottom of the description which provides example benchmarks to provide a sense of the scaling. Please note that the values used for these examples (30/60/90) are just that: examples. They are not coded limits/minimums.
In terms of missing health, there are no goals to shoot for, such as 10%/20%/etc, as the scaling is exponentially continuous. This means that missing 73.4% of your health will result in higher bonuses than missing 72.9%, and so on.
If there is anything you would like clarified, questions and comments can be asked here, or if you prefer they can be directed to tome.vanguard@gmail.com, or you can sometimes find me in the ToME irc channel as JSands.
Last edited by JSands on Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Just starting one, here's a few things I've noticed: (OK, it started as a few, and kind of ballooned)
- You didn't link to the addon, it is here: http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/vanguard-class
- On the birth screen, it only lists the stats that it gets bonuses in, normally all are listed (as +0 for the others)
- You do not start with a stamina bar, I'm not sure why not.
- Why is this a Defiler class? It doesn't use Vim.
- I like the altered requirements for talents, it forces you into spreading out your points more.
- They start with Shield and Two Handed weapons trees, but no two-hander or shield.
- For Carpe Commodum, how do the chances stack? If it says 17% chance of two attacks and 7% chance of three, is it 83% one attack, 10% two, 7% three, or what?
- Permanent stat increases from using skills is farmable, but could work well...
- Unless something has changed (or you took care of it), if you use a Tricks of the Trade sustain while confused, you can fail deactivating the previous one, and have two of them up at the same time.
- I like the colour scheme that you use for the talent descriptions.
- It took me a bit to realize that the listed values in the talents that scale with life lost are always showing the current values.
- Natural Born Killer seems odd to me, as it would encourage swapping to it right before killing bosses (etc) allowing you to gain the full benefits while getting most of the benefits of another one as well.
- It doesn't have much of a place for generic points, or category points. Another generic tree or two from an existing class could work well.
- Breaking point looks weak.
- How does the scaling work when you are below 0 HP? Heroism Infusions could be extremely powerful for them, depending.
- I only started with 1 stat point, instead of 3?
All right, now to try actually playing one. (dualwielding, focusing on crits, Critical Massacre, and Insult to Injury)
EDIT: after starting:
- Combat Training nerfs?!?
- wow, all of the talents have long cooldowns.
- Critical Massacre is totally farmable, I got a Stone Troll (and myself) into a Font of Life, took off my mainhand weapon, and held down the move key. We both regen life faster than we kill each other, and I'm getting occasional crits. I figure in about 10 hours, I should do enough damage in a crit to kill the troll, then I can rampage over everything.
- You didn't link to the addon, it is here: http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/vanguard-class
- On the birth screen, it only lists the stats that it gets bonuses in, normally all are listed (as +0 for the others)
- You do not start with a stamina bar, I'm not sure why not.
- Why is this a Defiler class? It doesn't use Vim.
- I like the altered requirements for talents, it forces you into spreading out your points more.
- They start with Shield and Two Handed weapons trees, but no two-hander or shield.
- For Carpe Commodum, how do the chances stack? If it says 17% chance of two attacks and 7% chance of three, is it 83% one attack, 10% two, 7% three, or what?
- Permanent stat increases from using skills is farmable, but could work well...
- Unless something has changed (or you took care of it), if you use a Tricks of the Trade sustain while confused, you can fail deactivating the previous one, and have two of them up at the same time.
- I like the colour scheme that you use for the talent descriptions.
- It took me a bit to realize that the listed values in the talents that scale with life lost are always showing the current values.
- Natural Born Killer seems odd to me, as it would encourage swapping to it right before killing bosses (etc) allowing you to gain the full benefits while getting most of the benefits of another one as well.
- It doesn't have much of a place for generic points, or category points. Another generic tree or two from an existing class could work well.
- Breaking point looks weak.
- How does the scaling work when you are below 0 HP? Heroism Infusions could be extremely powerful for them, depending.
- I only started with 1 stat point, instead of 3?
All right, now to try actually playing one. (dualwielding, focusing on crits, Critical Massacre, and Insult to Injury)
EDIT: after starting:
- Combat Training nerfs?!?
- wow, all of the talents have long cooldowns.
- Critical Massacre is totally farmable, I got a Stone Troll (and myself) into a Font of Life, took off my mainhand weapon, and held down the move key. We both regen life faster than we kill each other, and I'm getting occasional crits. I figure in about 10 hours, I should do enough damage in a crit to kill the troll, then I can rampage over everything.
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
I appreciate your comments. Uploading a slightly updated version now. Please let me know if anything else catches your attention.lukep wrote:Just starting one, here's a few things I've noticed: (OK, it started as a few, and kind of ballooned)
- You didn't link to the addon, it is here: http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/vanguard-class
===Thanks for that, didn't even cross my mind. Adding it to my original post.
- On the birth screen, it only lists the stats that it gets bonuses in, normally all are listed (as +0 for the others)
===Fixed in next update.
- You do not start with a stamina bar, I'm not sure why not.
===Fixed in next update.
- Why is this a Defiler class? It doesn't use Vim.
===I went more by description than resources (What I had in mind almost perfectly matched the defiler description), but this is one thing I'm 100% flexible on. Should it perhaps be another warrior class?
- I like the altered requirements for talents, it forces you into spreading out your points more.
===Thanks, I was going for this and hoping I didn't spread things out too much.
- They start with Shield and Two Handed weapons trees, but no two-hander or shield.
===Fixed in next update.
- For Carpe Commodum, how do the chances stack? If it says 17% chance of two attacks and 7% chance of three, is it 83% one attack, 10% two, 7% three, or what?
===Let's say it says 17% double,75% triple: .17 * .07 = .0119 (1.19%) to land 3 attacks. Basically, after landing the double, you have a 7% chance to then land the triple. Seems low, but they add up fast enough.
- Unless something has changed (or you took care of it), if you use a Tricks of the Trade sustain while confused, you can fail deactivating the previous one, and have two of them up at the same time.
===Upon looking into this, the code in Actor.lua prevents this if the talent is sustained. I will keep an eye on this in my games, and if anyone has it happen contrary to this, please let me know.
- I like the colour scheme that you use for the talent descriptions.
===Thanks. This was more of a personal conceit, but if enough people hate it I will remove it. Makes it easy to see at a glance what changes what.
- It took me a bit to realize that the listed values in the talents that scale with life lost are always showing the current values.
===Yeah, it's a bit hard to communicate concisely. Perhaps I could add something to explain this better.
- Natural Born Killer seems odd to me, as it would encourage swapping to it right before killing bosses (etc) allowing you to gain the full benefits while getting most of the benefits of another one as well.
===While testing, I originally had it so that you couldn't switch while in combat. I removed that because enemies can cancel sustains. Perhaps I can go back to that method, but I'd rather not replace the +exp stance unless necessary.
- It doesn't have much of a place for generic points, or category points. Another generic tree or two from an existing class could work well.
===Category points will REALLY improve the talent lines if you specialize, but I can see the need for another generic skill line.
- Breaking point looks weak.
===One it gets up a bit in points, it can be quite valuable. At the top end, it will negate ~40% of all damage from hits that do ~25% of your CURRENT life. I will keep an eye on this though.
- How does the scaling work when you are below 0 HP? Heroism Infusions could be extremely powerful for them, depending.
===Talents will continue scaling with these infusions, and do indeed make them pretty powerful. In my personal testing, nothing has gotten out of reasonable bounds by this method (and most talents are capped at logical points, such as 100% for armor hardiness, etc). If players report this is too powerful, I am open to changing it.
- I only started with 1 stat point, instead of 3?
===Auto requirements for using a shield reduce this (Bulwark also has this effect).
All right, now to try actually playing one. (dualwielding, focusing on crits, Critical Massacre, and Insult to Injury)
EDIT: after starting:
- Combat Training nerfs?!?
===This is compensated by the passive talents. This class is meant to be powerful at low healths, not all the time. By the time you hit a reasonable amount of health missing, you not only regain these stats, but surpass them.
- wow, all of the talents have long cooldowns.
===The cooldowns are heavily decreased by their respective stats. At first they seem high, but they will lower considerably as you level up. I will keep an eye on these as well.
- Permanent stat increases from using skills is farmable, but could work well...
- Critical Massacre is totally farmable, I got a Stone Troll (and myself) into a Font of Life, took off my mainhand weapon, and held down the move key. We both regen life faster than we kill each other, and I'm getting occasional crits. I figure in about 10 hours, I should do enough damage in a crit to kill the troll, then I can rampage over everything.
===I considered this, and thought about making it take longer, but I decided that if players want to do this, it's a conscious decision on their part and one step below using the console. I could tweak this a bit, but if it takes even 2 hours, that demonstrates a thought process and dedication beyond my willpower to counteract. If you have a suggestion, please let me know.
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Add this to the birth file:JSands wrote: - They start with Shield and Two Handed weapons trees, but no two-hander or shield.
===Honestly, this is because I couldn't figure out how to add an item to their inventory but not equip it, otherwise they would have all of them to start with. If someone knows the line to use (resolvers.inventory)? please let me know.
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copy = {
resolvers.inventory{ id=true,
{type="weapon", subtype="dagger", name="iron dagger", autoreq=true, ego_chance=-1000},
{type="weapon", subtype="shield", name="iron shield", autoreq=true, ego_chance=-1000},
{type="weapon", subtype="greatsword", name="iron greatsword", autoreq=true, ego_chance=-1000},
},
},
Code-dove a bit, and I see a few issues:
- The nerfs to combat accuracy, as well as Carpe Commodum and Insult to Injury only apply to player vanguards, not rare/uniques (can rares and uniques be vanguards?)
- For the Insult to Injury check, most other sustains do something like: "...self:knowTalent(self.T_EXPLOIT_WEAKNESS) and self:isTalentActive(self.T_EXPLOIT_WEAKNESS) then..." instead of just the second check. I'm guessing there's an obscure reason for that.
- Carpe Commodum and Insult to Injury being in AttackTarget instead of AttackTargetWith was unexpected.
- The Critical Massacre check should be able to get moved to a hook (Combat:attackTargetWith), but I couldn't find the crit chance in the passed values, so maybe not.
- I was expecting double/triple strikes to act more like Greater Weapon Focus, instead of just adding another attack at 100% damage. Not sure what could be done about that though.
- you do not need to include the "getHMOD" (etc) lines in your talents, you can call the calcHMOD funttion directly.
- Critical Massacre could tell you how far you are from your next increase?
- Unstoppable force does not check pinning immunity
- I was worried that you could get endless attacks from Relentless Assault by using a weapon of the Leech, but I see you can't.
- you don't need to use timed effects to give bonuses to attacks within a talent, you can add and remove them manually.
- Why do the Tricks sustains have a cooldown of 20, but give themselves a cooldown of 30 when they are deactivated?
- This is just personal preference, but I like to put as many of the calculations as possible in the talent itself, and then call it from Combat.lua, the description, and anywhere else it is needed. It is much easier to modify and maintain. (also, it allows things like how you modified the combat training skills, but that's beside the point)
- In general, very good job on coding this class, it should remain compatible with almost anything, and shouldn't affect much (if anything) outside of itself.
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Thank you very much, especially for looking at the code. I'll update asap, and I welcome any further comments or suggestions you might have.lukep wrote:JSands wrote: Add this to the birth file:
===It's in the 1.0.01 update, thanks.
For the nerfs to combat training, I think that they are appropriate, but need to be communicated better. For example, make one of the talents that you start with not unlearnable, and have it say "...and also decreases the power of combat training talents by 50%" or something like that.
===I guess my reasoning on this was that most players wouldn't think about what these skills did on other classes, and instead read them and consider their benefits as a vanguard. I can see where I erred on that line of thinking though. The only issue I have is when not automatically using assigned talents (i.e. you get the points but not the talents). Wouldn't this result in some weirdness? (e.g. you level up Armour Training and later take Fortitude 1, suddenly decreasing the effectiveness of Armour Training?)
Code-dove a bit, and I see a few issues:
- The nerfs to combat accuracy, as well as Carpe Commodum and Insult to Injury only apply to player vanguards, not rare/uniques (can rares and uniques be vanguards?)
===I wasn't aware that NPC's could adopt add-on classes. Every check that includes a Vanguard bonus has a (isPlayer) check along with it, so at worst they should just not inherit the ability. Please advise on this if you have further details.
- For the Insult to Injury check, most other sustains do something like: "...self:knowTalent(self.T_EXPLOIT_WEAKNESS) and self:isTalentActive(self.T_EXPLOIT_WEAKNESS) then..." instead of just the second check. I'm guessing there's an obscure reason for that.
==I see what you mean by that, and theoretically I can see the reason for it. While it doesn't seem necessary (i.e. isActive will not return true whether or not they know the talent if it's not active), I can see the wisdom in applying the additional check. Thanks.
Fixed in 1.0.2
- Carpe Commodum and Insult to Injury being in AttackTarget instead of AttackTargetWith was unexpected.
===If I recall, this is primarily due to the noenergy factor. Please let me know if I assumed incorrectly.
- The Critical Massacre check should be able to get moved to a hook (Combat:attackTargetWith), but I couldn't find the crit chance in the passed values, so maybe not.
==Yeah, I had trouble tracking crit outside of this, so this is where it ended up. I am open to suggestions.
- I was expecting double/triple strikes to act more like Greater Weapon Focus, instead of just adding another attack at 100% damage. Not sure what could be done about that though.
===It's probably just the late hour, but I'm missing your meaning here. Please humor me and give me a bit more detail on what you mean.
- you do not need to include the "getHMOD" (etc) lines in your talents, you can call the calcHMOD function directly.
===Thanks. If it wasn't obvious, I am not a programmer, and I learned Lua while I made this mod.
Fixed in 1.0.2
- Critical Massacre could tell you how far you are from your next increase?
===Easy fix. Fixed in 1.0.2
- Unstoppable force does not check pinning immunity
===Intentional, but perhaps not a wise choice? i welcome other opinions on this.
- I was worried that you could get endless attacks from Relentless Assault by using a weapon of the Leech, but I see you can't.
===Yeah, I originally had that problem. Caught that after a few test runs.
- you don't need to use timed effects to give bonuses to attacks within a talent, you can add and remove them manually.
===Another result of learning as I go, and something I'm not 100% certain on how to streamline. If you could provide an example using my code, I'd really appreciate it. (I'm assuming it's close to talents/tricks.lua/stalwart constitution)
- Why do the Tricks sustains have a cooldown of 20, but give themselves a cooldown of 30 when they are deactivated?
===Copy/Paste mistake. Should be 30. Fixed in 1.0.2.
- This is just personal preference, but I like to put as many of the calculations as possible in the talent itself, and then call it from Combat.lua, the description, and anywhere else it is needed. It is much easier to modify and maintain. (also, it allows things like how you modified the combat training skills, but that's beside the point)
==By the time I completed v1 of this mod, I realized this (see previous mention about my lack of skills). The next major version 1.1.0 will hopefully have a bit more streamlined code, including this.
- In general, very good job on coding this class, it should remain compatible with almost anything, and shouldn't affect much (if anything) outside of itself.
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Add this to the birth file, and they won't be able to be rares or random bosses anymore (grabbed from the Solipsist birth file):JSands wrote:===I wasn't aware that NPC's could adopt add-on classes. Every check that includes a Vanguard bonus has a (isPlayer) check along with it, so at worst they should just not inherit the ability. Please advise on this if you have further details.
Code: Select all
not_on_random_boss = true,
An example: if you use flurry (45% damage) with greater weapon focus up, it checks the chance when you hit with your mainhand, offhand, mainhand, offhand, mainhand, then offhand weapons. If the check passes for the first offhand attack, second offhand attack, and the third mainhand attack, you would get two extra hits with your offhand at 45% damage and one extra hit with your mainhand at 45% damage.JSands wrote:- I was expecting double/triple strikes to act more like Greater Weapon Focus, instead of just adding another attack at 100% damage. Not sure what could be done about that though.
===It's probably just the late hour, but I'm missing your meaning here. Please humor me and give me a bit more detail on what you mean.
Your double hit check would check against the first attack, the second attack, and the third attack. If one of the checks passed, you would get an extra attack at 100% damage, not the reduced damage from Flurry.
Instead of (For Unstoppable Force in the Supreme tree):JSands wrote:- you don't need to use timed effects to give bonuses to attacks within a talent, you can add and remove them manually.
===Another result of learning as I go, and something I'm not 100% certain on how to streamline. If you could provide an example using my code, I'd really appreciate it. (I'm assuming it's close to talents/tricks.lua/stalwart constitution)
Code: Select all
self:setEffect(self.EFF_UNSTOPPABLE_FORCE_HIT, 1, {varDamage=mod_Damage})
self:attackTarget(target, nil, 1, true)
self:removeEffect(self.EFF_UNSTOPPABLE_FORCE_HIT)
Code: Select all
self.combat_atk = self.combat_atk + 1000 -- 100 doesn't ensure a hit.
combat_physcrit = combat_physcrit + 1000 -- same for crits
self:attackTarget(target, nil, 1 + modDamage, true) -- making the bonus damage be here is more consistent with other attacks, stacks more strongly with +damage% modifiers, and does not affect damage-on-hit effects on your weapons
self.combat_atk = self.combat_atk - 1000 -- resetting values...
combat_physcrit = combat_physcrit - 1000
I'm fine with it not checking, as long as you say that it doesn't check pin immunity.JSands wrote:- Unstoppable force does not check pinning immunity
===Intentional, but perhaps not a wise choice? i welcome other opinions on this.
You can put a noenergy AttackTarget within AttackTargetWith just fine, if that's the issue. Also, putting it in AttackTarget means that it does not trigger off of some talents, such as Dual Strike or Death Dance (they use AttackTargetWith).JSands wrote:- Carpe Commodum and Insult to Injury being in AttackTarget instead of AttackTargetWith was unexpected.
===If I recall, this is primarily due to the noenergy factor. Please let me know if I assumed incorrectly.
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Really fun class, but a bit overpowered on my opinion.
Some bug reports:
1) Calling / indomitable will: Critical Massacre is missing the requirement of hit and run. So you can obtain the second talent without the first one.
2) Same problem for Calling / tricks of the trade. None of them requires the previous talent learned. Also, increasing Constitution doesn't increase the effect as described.
3) If you go to poisoned deep water with pyrrhic Maneuvers you'll get a lua error. Also water jet gives a lua error.
Suggestions:
a) Lock some trees (One of each weapon style) and/or maybe Calling / Naked Villany. Or also Supreme excellence and/or Indomitable Will. Investing a category points on these sounds a good pay-off for the permanent enhances.
b) Limit Critical Massacre: 1 critical hit per turn should be more than enough. Right now wielding two daggers and ussing unstoppable force gives you 2 critical hits, increasing quickly the permanent bonus against the other weapon styles. Also, shield users get an increased criticala hit rate with Assault. Maybe the critical hit from unstoppable force could be removed to make the it more fair.
Thanks for the mod!
Some bug reports:
1) Calling / indomitable will: Critical Massacre is missing the requirement of hit and run. So you can obtain the second talent without the first one.
2) Same problem for Calling / tricks of the trade. None of them requires the previous talent learned. Also, increasing Constitution doesn't increase the effect as described.
3) If you go to poisoned deep water with pyrrhic Maneuvers you'll get a lua error. Also water jet gives a lua error.
Suggestions:
a) Lock some trees (One of each weapon style) and/or maybe Calling / Naked Villany. Or also Supreme excellence and/or Indomitable Will. Investing a category points on these sounds a good pay-off for the permanent enhances.
b) Limit Critical Massacre: 1 critical hit per turn should be more than enough. Right now wielding two daggers and ussing unstoppable force gives you 2 critical hits, increasing quickly the permanent bonus against the other weapon styles. Also, shield users get an increased criticala hit rate with Assault. Maybe the critical hit from unstoppable force could be removed to make the it more fair.
Thanks for the mod!
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Working on addressing some of the issues above, might take a day or two to restructure things.
Emaster wrote:Really fun class, but a bit overpowered on my opinion.
Some bug reports:
1) Calling / indomitable will: Critical Massacre is missing the requirement of hit and run. So you can obtain the second talent without the first one.
===Simple error on my part, thanks. Fixed in 1.0.3.
2) Same problem for Calling / tricks of the trade. None of them requires the previous talent learned. Also, increasing Constitution doesn't increase the effect as described.
===These are not intended to require previous talents, similar to the technique line that includes armour training. Constitution does affect them, but the values are quite small, so it may take a few levels/good amount of Con to see an effect. With 90% of the talents, the relevant stat can increase the power of the talent by 10% per 25 stat, so at 100 con, the talent will be 40% stronger.
3) If you go to poisoned deep water with Pyrrhic Maneuvers you'll get a lua error. Also water jet gives a lua error.
===99% sure this is fixed in 1.0.3. I haven't been able to reproduce it, but let me know if you still encounter it.
Suggestions:
a) Lock some trees (One of each weapon style) and/or maybe Calling / Naked Villany. Or also Supreme excellence and/or Indomitable Will. Investing a category points on these sounds a good pay-off for the permanent enhances.
===I locked the secondary weapon talent skills in 1.0.3. I am considering adding another already-existing talent line to unlock, but I do not want to make my custom lines require a point to unlock at this time. I will keep this in mind though.
b) Limit Critical Massacre: 1 critical hit per turn should be more than enough. Right now wielding two daggers and using unstoppable force gives you 2 critical hits, increasing quickly the permanent bonus against the other weapon styles. Also, shield users get an increased critical hit rate with Assault. Maybe the critical hit from unstoppable force could be removed to make the it more fair.
===Considering this and will most likely address it in the next update. I did not personally find it to be too quick of a growth rate, but I can see a few instances where it might be a bit much. I removed the critical-hit from Unstoppable.
Thanks for the mod!
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
This class seems very cool conceptually, I've noticed one biiiig problem up to Dreadfell though.
Relentless Assault is horrifically, gamebreakingly overpowered. To put that into perspective, I actually just literally instantly killed the Greater Mummy Lord from full hp with it, as well as every other boss since obtaining it. Admittedly this character got a bit lucky (randart voratun mainhand from sandworms, randart stralite dagger offhand from maze, though neither are super amazing in particular) but that's incredibly excessive since I only have it at 2/5. I dunno if its numbers need to be tweaked waaaaay down or what, but it definitely feels like it needs some kinda nerfing.
Great job on the whole though, I really do like the class!
edit: just instagibbed Borfast with it, too.
Relentless Assault is horrifically, gamebreakingly overpowered. To put that into perspective, I actually just literally instantly killed the Greater Mummy Lord from full hp with it, as well as every other boss since obtaining it. Admittedly this character got a bit lucky (randart voratun mainhand from sandworms, randart stralite dagger offhand from maze, though neither are super amazing in particular) but that's incredibly excessive since I only have it at 2/5. I dunno if its numbers need to be tweaked waaaaay down or what, but it definitely feels like it needs some kinda nerfing.
Great job on the whole though, I really do like the class!
edit: just instagibbed Borfast with it, too.

Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
I've personally made about 12 or so run-throughs of the starting continent and have never seen damage output like that at this point in the game. Perhaps your weapons are slightly to blame, but I'll dig around and see if I mistyped value somewhere. If anyone else has had an experience like this, please let me know.Judecca wrote:This class seems very cool conceptually, I've noticed one biiiig problem up to Dreadfell though.
Relentless Assault is horrifically, gamebreakingly overpowered. To put that into perspective, I actually just literally instantly killed the Greater Mummy Lord from full hp with it, as well as every other boss since obtaining it. Admittedly this character got a bit lucky (randart voratun mainhand from sandworms, randart stralite dagger offhand from maze, though neither are super amazing in particular) but that's incredibly excessive since I only have it at 2/5. I dunno if its numbers need to be tweaked waaaaay down or what, but it definitely feels like it needs some kinda nerfing.
Great job on the whole though, I really do like the class!
edit: just instagibbed Borfast with it, too.
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
With my lvl 13 Vanguard I almost one hit the treant in old forest4 with Relentless Assault (I had some t2 green sword of massacre - 30 dmg and shield). Somehow I got frozen on my 5th attack and he had 21 hp left. Surprisingly, I still had 1/3 stamina to use. IMO Relentless Assault should be usable only when under 20% hp and should be still nerfed a bit. You can use it as an opener vs any boss, and if it isn't dead yet, you will have no stamina for some other actives Vanguard has. So, you can make it usable when on low hp, which fits the theme, and maybe give it some limit of attacks or not-scaling 20% stamina cost each attack.
Also, you could think of removing Combat Training entirely because at 0.5 effectivness it seems like a waste of points, and with 8 Vanguard's generics you can't really go AM or invest much in racials. You could also let Vanguard use massive armors without requirement (like alchemist's golem) and make the V's generic trees like Tricks of Trade tree, so you can put points in any of them without (for ex. to max armour and weapon dmg ones on low lvls), to compensate the fact V won't be able to have Combat Training talents.
BTW, I like Emaster's idea about Critical Massacre. Only 1 crit counted per turn makes it balanced, so it's not like dual wielders will stack it significanlty faster.
Edit: One more thing: I'm not sure if you are goig to add something with Vim to this class, but it's more of a Warrior right now. If you are going to make V a warrior subclass, then you should get remove the started shield rune, or just place in inventory, because right now you can't betray escorts to Zigurs, which could be beneficial (it's more likely you will have more mindpower than spellpower).
Keep up the good work!
Also, you could think of removing Combat Training entirely because at 0.5 effectivness it seems like a waste of points, and with 8 Vanguard's generics you can't really go AM or invest much in racials. You could also let Vanguard use massive armors without requirement (like alchemist's golem) and make the V's generic trees like Tricks of Trade tree, so you can put points in any of them without (for ex. to max armour and weapon dmg ones on low lvls), to compensate the fact V won't be able to have Combat Training talents.
BTW, I like Emaster's idea about Critical Massacre. Only 1 crit counted per turn makes it balanced, so it's not like dual wielders will stack it significanlty faster.
Edit: One more thing: I'm not sure if you are goig to add something with Vim to this class, but it's more of a Warrior right now. If you are going to make V a warrior subclass, then you should get remove the started shield rune, or just place in inventory, because right now you can't betray escorts to Zigurs, which could be beneficial (it's more likely you will have more mindpower than spellpower).
Keep up the good work!
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Edit: Found the problem with Relentless Assault. There's a slight problem in a modification I made to its calculation after I had finished testing it, resulting in waaaay too much damage.kemott11 wrote:With my lvl 13 Vanguard I almost one hit the treant in old forest4 with Relentless Assault (I had some t2 green sword of massacre - 30 dmg and shield). Somehow I got frozen on my 5th attack and he had 21 hp left. Surprisingly, I still had 1/3 stamina to use. IMO Relentless Assault should be usable only when under 20% hp and should be still nerfed a bit. You can use it as an opener vs any boss, and if it isn't dead yet, you will have no stamina for some other actives Vanguard has. So, you can make it usable when on low hp, which fits the theme, and maybe give it some limit of attacks or not-scaling 20% stamina cost each attack.
===I'm reworking some thing right now, and this is one of the big ones. I have never had such damage with this skill, but I will continue testing and should be done with a big patch in a day or two. The idea behind this skill was a big frontload of damage at the cost of losing all your stamina (no rest for the wicked popped right after works really well).
Also, you could think of removing Combat Training entirely because at 0.5 effectivness it seems like a waste of points, and with 8 Vanguard's generics you can't really go AM or invest much in racials. You could also let Vanguard use massive armors without requirement (like alchemist's golem) and make the V's generic trees like Tricks of Trade tree, so you can put points in any of them without (for ex. to max armour and weapon dmg ones on low lvls), to compensate the fact V won't be able to have Combat Training talents.
===I could take them out, but you only need 40 generic points to max vanguard passives, and after that you will have a decent amount of unused points. I figured this line was a good use of those points, and I nerfed it a bit to make the vanguard passives the focus. Think of Combat training more as a small boost after you've filled up the important stuff, whereas otherwise you'd just have points collecting dust. Even if you have awesome racials, it really harms nothing by leaving them in for those who do not. As for removing previous talent requirements, I will think on this idea.
BTW, I like Emaster's idea about Critical Massacre. Only 1 crit counted per turn makes it balanced, so it's not like dual wielders will stack it significanlty faster.
===I will probably go with this idea as well.
Edit: One more thing: I'm not sure if you are goig to add something with Vim to this class, but it's more of a Warrior right now. If you are going to make V a warrior subclass, then you should get remove the started shield rune, or just place in inventory, because right now you can't betray escorts to Zigurs, which could be beneficial (it's more likely you will have more mindpower than spellpower).
===Absorb runes are actually a big part of what I had in mind with this class, as being able to hold out at a really low hp% without healing was the driving impetus behind making this class. That said, if the class divisors are based more on resource usage than description, I will be willing to move the Vanguard to warrior.
Keep up the good work!
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- Archmage
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:54 am
- Location: Wroclaw/Poland
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Hej,
Great class overall, i like the concept of fighting on edge of your live very much.
One bug I found:
Vigilence (Defence Bonus) doesnt seem to be applying to the character.
Cheers.
p.s. I hope we will see more of this class
Great class overall, i like the concept of fighting on edge of your live very much.
One bug I found:
Vigilence (Defence Bonus) doesnt seem to be applying to the character.
Cheers.
p.s. I hope we will see more of this class

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- Archmage
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:54 am
- Location: Wroclaw/Poland
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
Hey,
another bug:
The Resist All also is not added to the character.
Cheers.
another bug:
The Resist All also is not added to the character.
Cheers.
Re: Vanguard Class v1.0.0
On those two bugs, I switched those two skills around (from 3rd to 4th in the talent tree, and vice versa), but forgot to switch them in one other spot, resulting in weird/missing bonuses. Will be fixed today with a number of other things.MisiuPysiu wrote:Hey,
another bug:
The Resist All also is not added to the character.
Cheers.