Lore questions

[Castler]

Is there any explanation for how otherwise exotic professions like Sun Paladins and Anorithil exist among yeeks and dwarves?

Yeeks are apparently virtually unknown among humans and elves (and modern halflings?). How is a yeek adventurer able to wander around Last Hope and Derth without anyone giving him a second glance?

After completing Dreadfell, why do yeeks and dwarves go to the elder of Last Hope? The in-game lore suggests that they would prefer to trust those of the Way and the Iron Throne, respectively, instead of going to the humans and the Allied Kingdoms. (A dwarf's conversation with the elder, for example, is a bit jarring: "We have heard rumors from the Dwarves that there still may be an orc presence deep in the old kingdom of Reknor." "Yeah, man, I was there. Now excuse me while I go hunt down whoever leaked that information to an outsider.")

Why does Last Hope have an elder? That feels more like a tribal society; I'd think a major military base of the Allied Kingdoms would have a lord or a duke or something.

Where, exactly, do Rolf and Weisman go? "Letter to Weisman (2)" says they're going to the "ruins just north of" Derth (presumably Kor'Pul), but later letters make it clear that they went to the Deep Bellow. Of course, they could have changed their minds, or done one and then the other, but it's an odd gap in an otherwise sequential narrative.

As a follow-up (and this belongs in the Ideas forum, I guess), I'd like to suggest that the game address some of these questions. I may make an add-on to do so, although it feels odd to have an add-on just for lore...

[Frumple]

Re: First one, iirc DG said it was basically... wuzzat word, something like parallel evolution? There's nothing special about celestial magics (or whatever) that prevent someone independent from coming across the methodologies on their own and developing from there, s'just that there's a developed tradition in the east.

There's also a certain degree of interaction going from east to west (and probably vise versa, really) before you come along due to stuff like Zmekky's farportal experiments, so there's nothing really stopping some lost sunpa or anowhatsit from taking on an apprentice (or getting their secrets pried from them more forcefully). Basically, weird stuff like that can be summed up as "A farportal did it."

The rest, I'll leave to others

[Grey]

Is there any explanation for how otherwise exotic professions like Sun Paladins and Anorithil exist among yeeks and dwarves?

Yeeks are apparently virtually unknown among humans and elves (and modern halflings?). How is a yeek adventurer able to wander around Last Hope and Derth without anyone giving him a second glance?

Ignored for the purposes of the game. Some race/class combos are lore-wise incompatible but not restricted for gameplay purposes.

After completing Dreadfell, why do yeeks and dwarves go to the elder of Last Hope? The in-game lore suggests that they would prefer to trust those of the Way and the Iron Throne, respectively, instead of going to the humans and the Allied Kingdoms. (A dwarf's conversation with the elder, for example, is a bit jarring: "We have heard rumors from the Dwarves that there still may be an orc presence deep in the old kingdom of Reknor." "Yeah, man, I was there. Now excuse me while I go hunt down whoever leaked that information to an outsider.")

Dialogue could do with patching up, to be sure... But an artifact like the Staff needs explaining by one suited in old lore, which the yeeks and dwarves don't possess. Both are separate from regular society, and in particular don't care for history for history's sake so much.

Why does Last Hope have an elder? That feels more like a tribal society; I'd think a major military base of the Allied Kingdoms would have a lord or a duke or something.

"Elder" as in elder statesman, or elder seer. It's very much not a tribal role, but an extremely learned person of high social rank. Not military though.

Where, exactly, do Rolf and Weisman go? "Letter to Weisman (2)" says they're going to the "ruins just north of" Derth (presumably Kor'Pul), but later letters make it clear that they went to the Deep Bellow. Of course, they could have changed their minds, or done one and then the other, but it's an odd gap in an otherwise sequential narrative.

There are no exact locations they go to, apart from where they finally end up (you may not have seen that lore piece yet).

As a follow-up (and this belongs in the Ideas forum, I guess), I'd like to suggest that the game address some of these questions. I may make an add-on to do so, although it feels odd to have an add-on just for lore...

I'm open ears for lore ideas.

[AlexanderR]

Is there any explanation for how otherwise exotic professions like Sun Paladins and Anorithil exist among yeeks and dwarves?

As it have been already stated, Celestials aren't that exotic. Many of them arrived from East during The Mad Scientist's experiments, Naga invasions etc. See Kor's lore for additional inspiration. Furthermore, Celestials of East aren't fully self-developed, are they? Surely, those guys originated from some weird branch of magic, more or less familiar to likes of Linaniil and Thalerion. I imagine, there is even some secret clique in Angolwen (likely as "secret" as Angolwen itself for outsiders, lol), providing them with fresh news about war against orcs. Same goes for secrecy of Chronomancy, yeeks, cloaks of deception etc.: you think, that subject is virtually unknown to anyone, until you read some piece of lore or get recognized by first orc, met on the East.. and realize, that the clueless one is yourself.

Yeeks are apparently virtually unknown among humans and elves (and modern halflings?). How is a yeek adventurer able to wander around Last Hope and Derth without anyone giving him a second glance?

He is going to be mistaken for _very_ ugly halfling. Probably the reason, why yeeks were secretly enslaved by them in the first place . That orc still recognizes you, but that's probably sign of his extreme badassness. Modern halflings either have no idea about ancient past or just keep quiet.

After completing Dreadfell, why do yeeks and dwarves go to the elder of Last Hope? The in-game lore suggests that they would prefer to trust those of the Way and the Iron Throne, respectively, instead of going to the humans and the Allied Kingdoms. (A dwarf's conversation with the elder, for example, is a bit jarring: "We have heard rumors from the Dwarves that there still may be an orc presence deep in the old kingdom of Reknor." "Yeah, man, I was there. Now excuse me while I go hunt down whoever leaked that information to an outsider.")

I believe this to be bug and major plot hole (like almost everything, that happens after surviving Ambush). Yeeks, should probably consult their waymaster (likely to be sent to Last Hope). Dwarves should contact representatives of Iron Throne. Not sure about elves - corresponding leaders are still not coded anywhere.

Why does Last Hope have an elder?

Just because. Is ToME a medieval simulator?

[Castler]

Ignored for the purposes of the game. Some race/class combos are lore-wise incompatible but not restricted for gameplay purposes.

Dialogue could do with patching up, to be sure... But an artifact like the Staff needs explaining by one suited in old lore, which the yeeks and dwarves don't possess. Both are separate from regular society, and in particular don't care for history for history's sake so much.

I'm open ears for lore ideas.

Brainstorming some ideas to address some of these questions...

When entering another town for the first time, a yeek could get a message similar to the following: "As you enter the strangers' town, you feel the reassuring presence of the Way around you, psychically dulling the inhabitants' curiosity and causing them to pay you no more attention than one of their own kind." Or, maybe, as AlexanderR says, they look like really ugly halflings, but in that case, yeek NPCs' descriptions should be updated to indicate some resemblance.

The dwarves could have independently developed celestial magic within their Guild of Astronomers. (The existence of stone wardens shows they have some unique arts.) Their starting intro could reference this.

I can imagine the yeeks, via the Way, tapping into races' dreams and collective unconscious and gleaning otherwise unknown skills that way. Sort of like the akashics from the Arcana Evolved pen'n'paper RPG, if you're familiar with that game. (Yeeks' population and technology level both seem low enough to not develop a lot of arcane magic, heavy armor techniques, etc. otherwise.)

I just noticed this evening that, when your character first greets Aeryn, (s)he says that they have no knowledge of Sun Paladins back west, so that dialog might need to be updated if Sun Paladins are ever permitted lore-wise from the west.

I also noticed that there's already some "nolore" logic in the LUA files to warn that certain race / class combos may not make sense lore-wise, so the game already tries to address my questions. However, that code doesn't appear to be working; I haven't investigated to see why.

Honestly, I don't feel like the elder's description of the staff is all that critical. It's pretty obvious from everyone's reactions and the fortress murals that the staff is a big deal without the elder's vague statements. I'd rather have unique handling for yeeks and dwarves than the limited info from the elder.

Just my two cents' worth. The lore for ToME is quite good overall; I don't think I even would have noticed these wrinkles if the quality weren't so good otherwise. Thanks for your work on it.

[Mewtarthio]

The trouble is that a good portion of the later game assumes you brought the Staff to Last Hope and would have to be changed otherwise. That being said, it would be nice if you could take it to the other leaders, just to see their reactions, even if it ultimately ended up in Last Hope anyway:

Zemekkys (in Point Zero) could inform you that you really shouldn't be pulling such a historically significant item out of the timeline.

Entry to Angolwen could be barred while you have the Staff. If you attempt to use the portal, a messenger from Linaniil shows up and tells you that bringing the ancient, power-absorbing artifact into the secret city of magic would be an incredibly bad idea, and that the Last Hope Elders can be trusted with it for now.

The dwarven leaders (who don't actually exist right now, unfortunately) could just sell the Staff to Last Hope and mention that they'll pass your name along (to explain why the Elders know who you are later), then give you the Reknor quest themselves.

Lastly, giving the Staff to the Grand Corruptor should immediately end the game with a terse message that you have now annihilated all life in a second Spellblaze.