Yeeks are unplayable?

[Nevuk]

That is my apparent impression after being unable to live past level 3 with them. Also not quite sure why they don't actually get a town but just a town image which makes no sense but is in fact what is.

If there is a way to play these weaklings I don't see it. They always die to something eventually without any support systems to help the way starting players usually have. Their starting power is interesting in theory but is really bad, failing 50% of the time at least. Maybe they are designed for a specific class combination but what it is, is beyond me. Very disappointing.

I should note that Archmage Yeeks can teleport to Anglowen but since there is absolutely NOTHING in the shops that can help them it is a futile journey.

==Edit==
I should clarify that last remark: starting with no real gold (everything costs more than 20gp) means they have no possible way to buy anything and can't sell anything since the only things sellable don't seem to drop for them.

It's not hard to live in the yeek place as a mindslayer. The second dungeon seemed ridiculous though, you have to do the underwater one to have any sort of a chance. The yeek's racial ability is kind of ridiculously good, letting you get out of a lot of tight situations and having a free pet basically. Turning on mind over matter (or whatever the ability is called) and shields allows the yeek guy to just sort of sit in a spot and let his floating weapon automatically attack them, and spiking shields up offers them a massive damage decrease over the next few turns, while using kinetic aura to deal burst cone aoe damage. The dot effect doesn't really seem to be worth the sustain cost. It's still very hard but I can't really see playing a yeek as any other class right now.

The real danger in the first dungeon is the water jet traps, nothing else does a particularly large amount of damage and you rarely run into more than 4-5 enemies at a time. The yellow A are the best to dominate in my experience, but if you dominate an eel or the like you can take over them to cast their skills manually. Just be certain to rest at the nearest safe water bubble if you're below 60-70 hp.

[Zonk]

Yeeks are unlocked by killing patient Z and then talking to the Wayist and picking the proper choices(not attacking him, duh.

Mindslayers are unlocked by doing the SAME but as a yeek(and as a yeek, you'll approach Z and the Wayist from a different direction - you'll come out of the tunnels to the east)

As for yeeks - they're challenging, but not impossible.
My first thought for which class to use when I got them was Summoner, which fits their starting stats...however there's two problems with yeek summoners:

1)If you want to unlock Mindslayers by killing Z but not the Wayist, avoid hydras as they do AOE
2)The ritches in the Ritch tunnels are 100% fire resistant so your firespitter won't do much(the boss is only 40% resistant - this will eventually be fixed so all have 40%), so you might use hydras there.

The real danger in the first dungeon is the water jet traps, nothing else does a particularly large amount of damage and you rarely run into more than 4-5 enemies at a time.

I agree on the traps, which feel super powerful especially for how little life a yeek is going to have..but I disagree on the NPCs. They're fairly dangerous, and some (hunters) can teleport you to them through mindhook, which can quickly get you surrounded. They can also crit for 100+ damage.
At least the boss isn't super hard.



As for other possible class choices: You could try Zerker, it's a perfectly viable class for a yeek(and it's what I unlocked Mindslayers with actually)and the stuns help to kill Z, however remember to be careful with managing stamina in Murgol Lair.
The game does NOT care for your current air as of now, so if you try to rest underwater with little stamina/life, you're very likely to drown.
So when playing stamina-using classes, I'd avoid wasting resources.

edit: looks like you already unlocked it? Good for you. Oh and I forgot to mention it b efore but I also agree the lack of ID is a *major* pain(which I assume DG will fix by giving them the Orb, or Way-based ID, or giving the orb to everyone, we'll see)

[greycat]

It's not hard to live in the yeek place as a mindslayer. The second dungeon seemed ridiculous though, you have to do the underwater one to have any sort of a chance.

There's a lot in these two sentences that I don't quite understand. What's "the yeek place"?

I found it much easier to do the Ritch Tunnels first, and then the Murgol underwater dungeon second. I don't understand why you think anything from the underwater dungeon will assist you (although that could be class-dependent), especially when the underwater dungeon has massive water-jet traps that can take half or more of your Life, setting you up for an easy monster coup de grace.

The yeek's racial ability is kind of ridiculously good, letting you get out of a lot of tight situations and having a free pet basically.

I think I tried using it 3 or 4 times, and it worked once. The other times, I got nothing but a 50-turn red cooldown. *shrug*

Turning on mind over matter (or whatever the ability is called) and shields allows the yeek guy to just sort of sit in a spot and let his floating weapon automatically attack them, and spiking shields up offers them a massive damage decrease over the next few turns ...

Mindslayer stuff... I just unlocked that last night, and haven't tried one yet.

I daresay that at least half the people reading this thread will have unlocked Yeeks but not Mindslayers yet, as doing the latter requires getting a Yeek to survive long enough to take out Z while keeping the Wayist alive.

The real danger in the first dungeon is the water jet traps, ...

I stand firmly by my decision to do the Ritch Tunnels first. I'm positive that I would never have survived had I continued trying Murgol first.

I killed off a bunch of Yeeks before finally getting one to succeed in unlocking Mindslayers. I used the Anorithil class, which doesn't need Str or Dex to survive. At level 1, I put 2 points in Mag and 1 in Con. Then I continued putting all stat points in Con until it was up to 12, at which point I resumed boosting Mag. Surviving to level 4 was challenging, but not unreasonable, in the Ritch Tunnels. At level 4, I took the Jumpgate talent and stopped running the Hymn, so that I'd have enough Negative energy to actually use it. With a jumpgate set up by the entry stairs (which is always a lovely, lovely 1-tile-wide tunnel on each level), I was always able to escape to safety whenever 5 bugs would show up out of nowhere and surround me, so long as I kept some Negative energy in reserve.

Killing the Ritch boss took me to level 7 or 8 (I forget which), at which point I was strong enough for the Murgol dungeon. From there, I went on to kill Z.

Then of course I screwed up and died... but hey, Mindslayers are unlocked now.

[yufra]

Yeeks are difficult to play, but why don't we avoid hyperbole? The racial talent appears to scale exceptionally well and will probably need to be nerfed at higher levels, but keep in mind what the effect actually is. It is guaranteed death for the NPC as well as a potential tank/damage dealer for 4+ turns. That sort of talent shouldn't hit 100% of the time, and 50% is probably fine.

In regards to strategy, the best luck I have had (unlocking Mindslayers) is to take an Archmage into the Ritch Tunnels first. I focused on non-fire beam spells, controlled PD, and freeze. The first few levels before controlled PD are the most dangerous, and at all times you should stick to the tunnels to make the most of your beam spells. I usually saved my racial talent for using on the chitinous ritches and PDing away if either the dominate or a freeze does not stick. Also there was a bug in the ritch tunnels giving all ritches 100% fire resistance instead of 40%, so a yeek archmage will be even more powerful in the future. After clearing the tunnels I dove the submerged zone as quickly as possible, taking the down stairs as soon as I found them. Freeze-stun followed by damage took care of that boss, and the same strategy worked on Subject Z.

That final battle deserves some more thought. The wayist feel weak, and although he was tactical AI I don't remember him fleeing. This is probably because the tactical AI currently works on a percentage of maximum life only, and although 30 life is 30% of life it also happens to be too little to ignore healing/fleeing at. I'll start another thread on this edge-case (edge-case since most tactical AI holders are higher levels). Back from that tangent the wayist needs help, and the best luck I have had is in dropping negative effects on Subject Z. Some form of stun is good, and if you are playing an alchemist or summoner using Taunt would be right on.

In summary, tough race, some bugs that increase difficulty, and good luck!

EDIT: Removed an incorrect statement on the tactical AI.

[edge2054]

I think the traps could be toned down but otherwise not every race is meant to be equal. Yeeks gain levels faster then everyone else and considering some people have gotten them out of the starting area I think unplayable is an exaggeration.

Hard, yes. Traps that one shot you are unfair, yes.

Unplayable, no. Challenging surely.

I wonder if anyone complained that Lost Souls where 'unplayable'.

[Grey]

Yeah, not every race needs to be balanced, and it can be fun to have a "challenge" race that ultimately can end up very very powerful.

[Zonk]

Yeah, not every race needs to be balanced, and it can be fun to have a "challenge" race that ultimately can end up very very powerful.

Actually....might be going OT, but the reason I like yeeks so much while I didn't care for yeeks in T2/bands is that 'our' yeeks are not a race whose whole gimmick is 'You suck at everything, except you gain levels quickly'.

I don't even think they're a challenge race per se although their starting areas might be significantly harder than the default ones(and some of that is from bugs, again).

They're more 'fleshed out' and have their own things - the Way, an island, unique racial power, extreme though not overall horrible stats(if you add the stat modifiers, it's +0).

Even the racial experience bonus doesn't feel to me like a balancing mechanic, AKA 'you suck so here's some extra exp', like the old yeeks had...instead I see it as fitting the racial concept just fine: being mentally overdeveloped and linked to the Way , yeeks simply learn more from their experiences.

Basically: yeeks rule and I want to see more of them

[PowerWyrm]

The problem is not really the yeeks, but probably the ritches no? 100-150 hps for the chitinous, rush/pinning (basically instant death) attacks for the impalers, and sometimes they come in pits (even at the entrance of the level). Even non-yeeks would have a hard time surviving this first dungeon.

[yufra]

I just want to note that the ? is there for a reason. It has been my experience that Yeek play defies my meager abilities. So they are definitely unplayable for me. Or at least so far have proved to be so. The question is: Is this how you want them to be?

Good point Gandolfo, it felt like a rhetorical question but such is the internet obfuscating communication. I think the difficulty is a tad too high for ranged characters at the moment, and I would need to take a few more runs with melee characters to compare. The character vault is filled with low level yeek deaths, and most of them do appear to be ranged. I'll give a few yeek melee characters a run and see how that goes.

[Dekar]

The 3 digit hp ritches also have 100% fire immunity, which makes them harder to kill for low mages and summoners, both classes I tried.

[yufra]

So the ritch fire immunity is being reduced, and some people on IRC mentioned that the submerged level is very difficult for stamina-dependent classes since the air bubbles are not around for long enough to restore stamina. I am toying around with a way to create permanently air-filled chambers (think slightly higher than the rest of the level) to help with that. Any other ideas/problems?

[Graziel]

just idea - make water based creatures suffocate in these permanent air bubles - just like fish taken from water
as how to maybe just make stairs to 'dry cavern' where there is air.

[madmonk]

So the ritch fire immunity is being reduced, and some people on IRC mentioned that the submerged level is very difficult for stamina-dependent classes since the air bubbles are not around for long enough to restore stamina. I am toying around with a way to create permanently air-filled chambers (think slightly higher than the rest of the level) to help with that. Any other ideas/problems?

It must be the RNG at work but in around 20 attempts at the underwater dungeon I have yet to get an air bubble. I always drown!

[yufra]

Raised platforms Ala Mario Bros? That could work the only problem being how to do the topography so that it makes sense with the layout.

Well in a top-down game it is difficult to give the sense of Z-levels, and since this would be a fractional Z-level even a bit tougher. The current idea I have been poking at would have some rooms be completely air-filled, and possibly have a log message pop up when moving over the boundary saying something like: "You walk up a small incline into an large pocket of air." and "You descend from the large pocket of air". Aquatic animals of course would not cross the boundary, and I would also probably avoid having the stairs generate in these rooms because it would look weird for a downstairs to be in a water filled room leading to an air filled room. This is by no means a completed solution, just something I am toying with to see how well it would work.

[kazak]

I really like the racial flavor the yeek gets. However, having now run a few, those first few player levels are seriously awful. I've tried starting with the water level, but it just doesn't work for me. I'm surprised no one has mentioned the lighting, yet. Not the lightning, the lighting. In both dungeons. Because of the low vision radius, I'm frequently surrounded or getting shot from outside vision radius, and this is too much for the low HP you're stuck with. And on the water level, the mindslayers can mindhook you out of the hallway, and those blue yeeks have flurry or something that can take you out in one round (at least on the second level, in my experience).

I appreciate that the low stats forces tactical play, but the low light radius and lack of perma-lit rooms just makes that play-style awful: Kill everything in the corridor, take a step out. Wait. Nothing. Wait some more. Nothing. Take another step. Wait. Take another, find yourself looking at 2 yellow ritches (that can apparently outrun you), the little bastard that rushes and pins you, a red one shooting fireballs at you, and you several steps from the sanctity of the corridor. A lot of the time getting swarmed is simply unavoidable, and at especially at early levels, getting swarmed means dead. It would be less awful if the rooms or the baddies were lit and you could have a reasonable chance of avoiding getting mobbed like that--have some warning before they're two paces away. Am I the only one?

So I've managed to get to Subject Z with an Anorithil, but couldn't damage him faster than he could heal. I finally beat him with an archmage to get the psionic unlock. Spent my early points (and spare lives) to get lvl 3 illuminate, freeze, and controlled PD. That involved casting illuminate, resting, walk a few steps, repeat. Lightning and running away anytime an I pops out. Liberal use of stairdancing and controlled PD as well. After doing this enough to finish the Ritch level, use all the points to get manathrust and flame beaming. Between freeze and the beaming spells, Subject Z went down pretty easy. I can't imagine doing that with a melee class, much less getting that far.

I tried doing a berserker as someone else suggested, but even with precise strikes I couldn't manage to hit or stun anything often enough to not die. Melee classes have the problem of low to-hit coupled with low HP and no way to escape or light the area. Earlier comments suggested that ranged classes perhaps have a tougher time, yet my experience has been the opposite. Anyone else?

I'm also trying a yeek mindslayer and that just seems like the most miserable early game yet--relying mostly on a point each in the shield talents and generally melee tactics. I've tried using kinetic aura, but it drains the psi-energy without doing much damage to the baddies. I've tried spiking it, but that required not using shields so there was enough psi, and then it drained all the psi without actually killing anything, deactivating all the other psi talents at the same time (which I understand is a bug?). Is there some trick I'm missing?

I'm not really suggesting nerfing the NPCs or buffing the player, but I'm wondering if others are finding the early game more frustrating than challenging for yeeks? Maybe something as simple as lighting the rooms or the NPCs would take away some of the crappiness.

Another maybe less likely suggestion: Lost souls were ridiculous to play in TOME2, but if you actually managed to kill something, you shot up experience levels really quickly. Maybe experience gain could ramp up somewhat more in the early levels. I don't mean 2 or 3 levels at a time, but maybe just a little more to give the player quicker access to useful talents. As it is, for melee characters at least (which I realize yeeks maybe aren't best suited for hand-to-hand combat), there's just too much "whiff, back away, whiff, die."

Or maybe I should just stop playing yeeks.