I was trying to kill the boss dragon in Carn Dum. To prepare I:
- Put on various equipment to give me 40% cold resistance
- Activated fully-upgraded Stone Skin and Eldar speed bonus
- Read a scroll of shielding
and stepped into the D's room... only to get frozen and die from 300 points of ranged damage before ever getting a chance to act.
Is LOS-scumming the only way to safely attack the later bosses? What am I missing?
frozen
Moderator: Moderator
Re: frozen
You really do need to get the drop on the bosses and kill them extremely quickly because they are extremely deadly compared to anything in ToME2 or pretty much any Band I've played. What level were you when you fought the dragon? I've decided that Carn Dum is a death trap (at least the deeper levels) and I don't even show up until L22 or so.Is LOS-scumming the only way to safely attack the later bosses? What am I missing?
Suggestions:
1. bring detection and every buff you can get your hands on (speed & shielding are good). Detect enemies doesn't always work with bosses though, so be wary.
2. Try to get armor of stability from the magic shop, stunning is still to be feared, but at least it's something.
3. If you have any type of targeted teleport then you should hit with your big attacks and then run&rest (monsters don't seem to heal as fast as you).
Basically don't hold back with either caution or resource use when I comes to bosses.
Re: frozen
A second on Carn Dum; it is EASILY the hardest of the four medium levels and is very nearly as tough as Tol Falas. The elven ruins are probably in between but all 3 are REALLY nasty, and Carn Dum and Tol Falas are dangerous with monster packs irrespective of the bosses. The first big frost giant monster pack you find as a player will probably kill you for example, and the same with wight packs (and ghouls if you aren't an undead).
Re: frozen
Run & Rest won't work with the Big D... or the big V. Run and buff is the strategy to use...SerPounce wrote:3. If you have any type of targeted teleport then you should hit with your big attacks and then run&rest (monsters don't seem to heal as fast as you).
Basically don't hold back with either caution or resource use when I comes to bosses.
I normally power level in here at level 6 -8, but only after I have the Helm of Hammerhand which I normally pick up just around level 10 will I go brave the Big D.
Regards
Jon.
Jon.
Re: frozen
I've been power-leveling in the old forest from lvl 1 and enjoying how much faster it is,* but OF is a serious cakewalk compared to CD for leveling. Leveling in CD is craaaazy -- sounds like a lot of fun and I will have to try it as soon as I can!
*I regularly get more exp in one level of the OF than all the levels of the trollshaws and that's if I tried to actually see most of them instead of just zooming through.
*I regularly get more exp in one level of the OF than all the levels of the trollshaws and that's if I tried to actually see most of them instead of just zooming through.
-
Massimiliano Marangio
- Sher'Tul
- Posts: 1120
- Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:52 pm
- Location: Germany
Re: frozen
Against the freezing effect you need stun resistance (i.e. Armour of Stability) and Spell Resistance. Cold Resistance doesn't help. Had to learn it the hard way, I lost a level 23 Berserker to the Mummy Boss.
Re: frozen
Oh, right, the big boys chase you down, but you can still buy time to chug some healing potions and buff.madmonk wrote:Run & Rest won't work with the Big D... or the big V. Run and buff is the strategy to use...SerPounce wrote:3. If you have any type of targeted teleport then you should hit with your big attacks and then run&rest (monsters don't seem to heal as fast as you).
Basically don't hold back with either caution or resource use when I comes to bosses.
I normally power level in here at level 6 -8, but only after I have the Helm of Hammerhand which I normally pick up just around level 10 will I go brave the Big D.
Re: frozen
Be warned, close up melee types may well run into trouble in CD. I find it much easier with the Archer/Slingers and Archmages than with the close up types. The easiest of the close up types is the Sun Paladin courtesy of Searing Light.Gwai wrote:I've been power-leveling in the old forest from lvl 1 and enjoying how much faster it is,* but OF is a serious cakewalk compared to CD for leveling. Leveling in CD is craaaazy -- sounds like a lot of fun and I will have to try it as soon as I can!
*I regularly get more exp in one level of the OF than all the levels of the trollshaws and that's if I tried to actually see most of them instead of just zooming through.
Regards
Jon.
Jon.
Re: frozen
Archmages and archers are my current characters to play anyway. Need to try the sun paladins, but every time I get a character near Moria, I sabotage myself. (Last character that got near there first lost most of his save file to an alt-tab crash and then just when I got it back, a friend stepped on my computer plug and crashed the whole computer. I finally got him almost all the way through Moria only to accidentally hold down the arrow key.)
Re: frozen
As a foreword, I love this game and am delighted beyond measure that its in Beta and so well crafted.
That having been said, I've got a suggestion. After losing a number of full-health characters to stuns/freezes, I'm starting to ponder whether it might make sense to reduce how long a character can be stunned for. I've beaten my head against various 'bands for years with varying degrees of success and I'm totally fine with RNG deaths (boss double-move Manastorms ftw) and brutal dungeon bosses that hit like trucks.
But part of what makes that ok is that the actually chance of a true RNG death used to be relatively small as long as you were careful. Melkor had a metric crapton of abilities, so the odds of him using serious killer moves twice in a row was actually really small, and with enough speed you could reduce the risk of him double-moving you to about zero (ToME2.x didn't have randomized speed, did it? Its been long enough that I don't remember anymore). Atlas could get lucky and hit you with cave-ins multiple times in the same round (had a character take ~850 damage in a single round from him once), but it was really rare, and the fact that he could do it at all made him scary. For the most part, you didn't die because of RNG, you died because you positioned badly, or handled a summoner badly or stayed in combat a round longer than you should have cut and run.
With ToME4 bosses, for the most part, I don't really feel like this is the case. 3 of my last 4 characters who lived past about level 2 died to a boss (Master, Shade, Bill) in a "single round" that they started at full health. My level 18 archer died to the Master after a rush for ~230 which froze him and then a follow up melee attack that did ~220 or so, my level 13 Arcane Blade died to the Shade after being frozen and then stunning blow'ed (while still frozen, so the Shade got to tee-off on him for nice long time) and my level 5 arcane blade died to a two-round stunning blow to Bill (stunning blow + 2 follow up melee attacks).
IMO, the problem isn't that the all the bosses can freeze or stun or both, and its not that the bosses hit so hard on level appropriate characters. Those abilities are fine in and of themselves. The issue is that the bosses don't really have many abilities so their CHANCE of using their freeze/stun attacks on any given attack is pretty high. This especially goes for melee characters who don't use shields. Most of the bosses have stunning blow, so the odds of getting hit by a stunning attack while in melee range is higher.
On the one hand, sure, I get that the bosses are meant to be tough and if they don't hit really hard then its too easy for characters to teleport away and effectively reset the encounter and its fine for certain classes to have a harder or even much harder time against certain bosses or even the game overall (hermit yeek bards ftw). On the other hand, bosses being able to repeatedly one-round prepared characters from full health (on normal) is, IMO, putting too much of a character's fate into the hands of RNG and too little in the hands of the person running the character (especially considering the gap between ranged characters and melee characters in this regard).
I suggest making two changes. First, is it possible to add a few more abilities to the bosses' ability table to reduce the chance of a stun, especially in melee? Perhaps a crippling attack and a pinning attack to the sunder armor/arms and stunning blow options that are already there. For ranged attacks, perhaps a couple moderate damage bolts of various elemental types could be added. If the school system doesn't really allow that, then I'd suggest reducing the probability of a special attack by a smidge.
Second, can player stuns/freezes be capped at a lower point? I assume an energy system is being used so me calling it a "round" is obviously incorrect, but I don't know how the mechanics are being handled so I'm fumbling a bit. A stunning blow landing and stunning a character long enough for the boss to get in two follow-up attacks is pretty much certain death for a level-appropriate character. Can either the amount of energy lost (or time during which the character doesn't get to generate energy) or however its handled be reduced so that multi-round stuns don't happen? Alternatively, if its something the character is doing, can it be made a bit clearer which moves use more than normal energy such that the player is made aware they are making their character vulnerable to this sort of situation when using the move.
I recognize these changes would make the bosses a bit less lethal which is probably a problem. Maybe to compensate, some of the earlier bosses could be given an escort monster or two.
That having been said, I've got a suggestion. After losing a number of full-health characters to stuns/freezes, I'm starting to ponder whether it might make sense to reduce how long a character can be stunned for. I've beaten my head against various 'bands for years with varying degrees of success and I'm totally fine with RNG deaths (boss double-move Manastorms ftw) and brutal dungeon bosses that hit like trucks.
But part of what makes that ok is that the actually chance of a true RNG death used to be relatively small as long as you were careful. Melkor had a metric crapton of abilities, so the odds of him using serious killer moves twice in a row was actually really small, and with enough speed you could reduce the risk of him double-moving you to about zero (ToME2.x didn't have randomized speed, did it? Its been long enough that I don't remember anymore). Atlas could get lucky and hit you with cave-ins multiple times in the same round (had a character take ~850 damage in a single round from him once), but it was really rare, and the fact that he could do it at all made him scary. For the most part, you didn't die because of RNG, you died because you positioned badly, or handled a summoner badly or stayed in combat a round longer than you should have cut and run.
With ToME4 bosses, for the most part, I don't really feel like this is the case. 3 of my last 4 characters who lived past about level 2 died to a boss (Master, Shade, Bill) in a "single round" that they started at full health. My level 18 archer died to the Master after a rush for ~230 which froze him and then a follow up melee attack that did ~220 or so, my level 13 Arcane Blade died to the Shade after being frozen and then stunning blow'ed (while still frozen, so the Shade got to tee-off on him for nice long time) and my level 5 arcane blade died to a two-round stunning blow to Bill (stunning blow + 2 follow up melee attacks).
IMO, the problem isn't that the all the bosses can freeze or stun or both, and its not that the bosses hit so hard on level appropriate characters. Those abilities are fine in and of themselves. The issue is that the bosses don't really have many abilities so their CHANCE of using their freeze/stun attacks on any given attack is pretty high. This especially goes for melee characters who don't use shields. Most of the bosses have stunning blow, so the odds of getting hit by a stunning attack while in melee range is higher.
On the one hand, sure, I get that the bosses are meant to be tough and if they don't hit really hard then its too easy for characters to teleport away and effectively reset the encounter and its fine for certain classes to have a harder or even much harder time against certain bosses or even the game overall (hermit yeek bards ftw). On the other hand, bosses being able to repeatedly one-round prepared characters from full health (on normal) is, IMO, putting too much of a character's fate into the hands of RNG and too little in the hands of the person running the character (especially considering the gap between ranged characters and melee characters in this regard).
I suggest making two changes. First, is it possible to add a few more abilities to the bosses' ability table to reduce the chance of a stun, especially in melee? Perhaps a crippling attack and a pinning attack to the sunder armor/arms and stunning blow options that are already there. For ranged attacks, perhaps a couple moderate damage bolts of various elemental types could be added. If the school system doesn't really allow that, then I'd suggest reducing the probability of a special attack by a smidge.
Second, can player stuns/freezes be capped at a lower point? I assume an energy system is being used so me calling it a "round" is obviously incorrect, but I don't know how the mechanics are being handled so I'm fumbling a bit. A stunning blow landing and stunning a character long enough for the boss to get in two follow-up attacks is pretty much certain death for a level-appropriate character. Can either the amount of energy lost (or time during which the character doesn't get to generate energy) or however its handled be reduced so that multi-round stuns don't happen? Alternatively, if its something the character is doing, can it be made a bit clearer which moves use more than normal energy such that the player is made aware they are making their character vulnerable to this sort of situation when using the move.
I recognize these changes would make the bosses a bit less lethal which is probably a problem. Maybe to compensate, some of the earlier bosses could be given an escort monster or two.
Re: frozen
Mmm I can see your point, but since with melee characters I'm constantly stunning my enemies, it definitively makes sense that they try to do it with me whenever they have the chance 
IMHO, enemies should behave in the most logic, strategic and fearful way, throwing at me all they have to smash me into pieces, and not just use their abilities at random.
It could be just a matter of fine tuning the damage some bosses can inflict even on super-equipped, high-level characters.
IMHO, enemies should behave in the most logic, strategic and fearful way, throwing at me all they have to smash me into pieces, and not just use their abilities at random.
It could be just a matter of fine tuning the damage some bosses can inflict even on super-equipped, high-level characters.
Don't fear the eyes of the Dark Lord / Morgoth I cry
All hope is gone, but I swear revenge / Hear my oath
I will take part in your damned fate
All hope is gone, but I swear revenge / Hear my oath
I will take part in your damned fate
Re: frozen
Elites (including the player) already reduce stun duration. I think it's factored by the relevant saving throw.
I can see archers having a lot of issues with the master but having lost a number of mages to him I can say that all of these deaths could have been prevented with a better strategy. Sure I could blame the RNG for the freeze, rush, stun combo that took 600 hit points from one of them before I got a chance to act again but I could also blame myself for not phase dooring him away when my freeze was resisted or selling that set of rough leather armor of stability I found in an earlier dungeon instead of wearing it.
Again though, I can see archers having a harder time. Potions of Speed and armor of stability can be immensely useful for anyone before taking on a boss that stuns. May also try potions of invisibility (probably not for the Master but may be useful for other bosses).
As to the Arcane Blade... I always burned Bill down with flame. If I ran out of mana I'd drink a mana pot. If he managed to close with me I'd try to stun him and put some distance between us. Stuns work both ways and I always found Bill to be a chump with a melee class, stun, swing, back up. Stun, swing, back up. RNG still plays a part but there's ways to minimize the risks.
*double checks that this is in spoilers*
*hits submit*
I can see archers having a lot of issues with the master but having lost a number of mages to him I can say that all of these deaths could have been prevented with a better strategy. Sure I could blame the RNG for the freeze, rush, stun combo that took 600 hit points from one of them before I got a chance to act again but I could also blame myself for not phase dooring him away when my freeze was resisted or selling that set of rough leather armor of stability I found in an earlier dungeon instead of wearing it.
Again though, I can see archers having a harder time. Potions of Speed and armor of stability can be immensely useful for anyone before taking on a boss that stuns. May also try potions of invisibility (probably not for the Master but may be useful for other bosses).
As to the Arcane Blade... I always burned Bill down with flame. If I ran out of mana I'd drink a mana pot. If he managed to close with me I'd try to stun him and put some distance between us. Stuns work both ways and I always found Bill to be a chump with a melee class, stun, swing, back up. Stun, swing, back up. RNG still plays a part but there's ways to minimize the risks.
*double checks that this is in spoilers*
*hits submit*
Re: frozen
Feanor, in theory I agree with you on intelligent monsters (and in 'bands past I've typically always played with the "Monsters act intelligently" flag checked), but in that might really be a better thing to tie into the difficulty level. Having the Master do nothing but cast Congeal Time, then try to freeze you until you either actually froze or it determined you were virtually immune THEN hammer you would be perfectly fine on Nightmare but on Normal would probably be setting the bar a bit high.
Edge, I'm surprised you've found Bill to be cake on melees. I mean, at lower levels you can miss with those stuns or Bill can resist them. Using a "hit and back" strategy, you're significantly increasing the number of times you have to hit with the stun and have Bill fail to resist it. My plan was to stun him, melee until he woke up, then flee until Stunning Blow was back off cooldown at which point I'd try to stun him again. Unfortunately, his first swing after recovering was a Stunning Blow and he killed me before I got to move again. Now handling him like a caster with Flames and perhaps Phase Door scrolls is interesting and probably would have been the better way for me to approach him.
Again, I have no problem with Bill hitting for 40+% of a level appropriate character's health and no problem with him being able to stunning blow, I just think the chance of him throwing it is too high. Giving him some sort of movement speed reduction attack (ranged?) or a dedicated escort monster would be interesting.
Edge, I'm surprised you've found Bill to be cake on melees. I mean, at lower levels you can miss with those stuns or Bill can resist them. Using a "hit and back" strategy, you're significantly increasing the number of times you have to hit with the stun and have Bill fail to resist it. My plan was to stun him, melee until he woke up, then flee until Stunning Blow was back off cooldown at which point I'd try to stun him again. Unfortunately, his first swing after recovering was a Stunning Blow and he killed me before I got to move again. Now handling him like a caster with Flames and perhaps Phase Door scrolls is interesting and probably would have been the better way for me to approach him.
Again, I have no problem with Bill hitting for 40+% of a level appropriate character's health and no problem with him being able to stunning blow, I just think the chance of him throwing it is too high. Giving him some sort of movement speed reduction attack (ranged?) or a dedicated escort monster would be interesting.
Re: frozen
Hit can be an issue for melee but I always take precise strikes if it's available and always keep weapon combat capped.
Skeletons tend to have an easier time as well at lower levels (dex bonuses = extra hit).
But yeah, my Stun strategy for Bill was to back off before he recovered. In other words. Stun him and take one maybe two hits and back off before he gets a chance to attack because he will attempt to stun you if his stun attack is off cooldown (and I imagine the cooldown is six just like the player's is). I've had very few issues kiting him like that, which is to say it's not fool proof but it's succeeded more then it's failed.
There's also racial options to consider if stuns are giving you problems. The dwarven racial gives physical and spell saves which will protect you against the big two stuns (stun and freeze), good to pair with any class you plan to drop a lot of points into Con with.
The Dunadan racial has saved me from a lot of stuns, especially early game. Pop it before the enemy closes and you'll have your regen going before you get stunned. This 'weak' regen heals a full life bar early game and scales with willpower, great to pair with any Will heavy class.
Ghouls have innate stun resist
Elves are excellent kiters thanks to the speed boost. Might be really effective with a dex based stun monkey class (a.k.a. rogues and shadowblades). Also highly effective fighters (again a class that gets a lot out of dex).
And that's about it really... unless you want to count Hobbit's Luck and the kill it before it reaches you approach, which can work on mobs that don't rush.
Skeletons tend to have an easier time as well at lower levels (dex bonuses = extra hit).
But yeah, my Stun strategy for Bill was to back off before he recovered. In other words. Stun him and take one maybe two hits and back off before he gets a chance to attack because he will attempt to stun you if his stun attack is off cooldown (and I imagine the cooldown is six just like the player's is). I've had very few issues kiting him like that, which is to say it's not fool proof but it's succeeded more then it's failed.
There's also racial options to consider if stuns are giving you problems. The dwarven racial gives physical and spell saves which will protect you against the big two stuns (stun and freeze), good to pair with any class you plan to drop a lot of points into Con with.
The Dunadan racial has saved me from a lot of stuns, especially early game. Pop it before the enemy closes and you'll have your regen going before you get stunned. This 'weak' regen heals a full life bar early game and scales with willpower, great to pair with any Will heavy class.
Ghouls have innate stun resist
Elves are excellent kiters thanks to the speed boost. Might be really effective with a dex based stun monkey class (a.k.a. rogues and shadowblades). Also highly effective fighters (again a class that gets a lot out of dex).
And that's about it really... unless you want to count Hobbit's Luck and the kill it before it reaches you approach, which can work on mobs that don't rush.