Tannen's tower rewrite

[malboro_urchin]

I wish there was an Angolwen destruction quest for antimagic players as a counterpart of the Zigur destruction quest that exist for magic players, it would make a lot of sense in the context because Angolwen is way much more dangerous for the world than Zigur is.

Before this, I think magic users should get some kind of reward for killing Urkis

[Red]

Glad we agree, DoctorNull. Antimagic is wrong, antimage is perfectly sensible. Because, if you read my post, that is what I said.

Robsoie, damn good point right there.

[Doctornull]

I wish there was an Angolwen destruction quest for antimagic players as a counterpart of the Zigur destruction quest that exist for magic players, it would make a lot of sense in the context because Angolwen is way much more dangerous for the world than Zigur is.

Without the Angolwen-trained mage who helped you open the portal from Maj'Eyal back to the East, you would be trapped and the world would not be saved. In nearly every winning game, Angolwen does something to help you save the world -- even if you're a Zigurite.

Zigur frequently does nothing useful at all.

And it's very important to notice that the powers ruling Angolwen have done -nothing- to stop those mages, it's only the actual hero of the campaign that does

Angolwen teleports you to Urkis.
Zigur tells you to go walk there yourself.

Neither of them actually solves the problem for you, but clearly Zigur is doing less to help.

That said, yeah, there ought to be a way for an AM character to fight Liilablahblah after Autobot.

Glad we agree, DoctorNull. Antimagic is wrong, antimage is perfectly sensible. Because, if you read my post, that is what I said.

Dude, please stop with the deliberate misunderstandings as a rhetorical tactic.

I agree with the major concession of yours that I quoted.

[Galax, the Trashman]

Without the Angolwen-trained mage who helped you open the portal from Maj'Eyal back to the East, you would be trapped and the world would not be saved.

Correct me if I'm wrong, however I do believe you can still access the East via the portal from Reknor anytime one would need or desire it. The portal in Lost Hope is just for lore and convenience sake.

Autobot.

I laughed more than I should've at this one.

[Doctornull]

Correct me if I'm wrong, however I do believe you can still access the East via the portal from Reknor anytime one would need or desire it. The portal in Lost Hope is just for lore and convenience sake.

You are correct, and thanks for the correction.

So the choices are:
- Get help from Angolwen (most people do this); or
- Get no help from anyone.

My central point, which is that Angolwen helps more than Zigur, still stands.

[Red]

If you want, but the discussion is pretty much over if we agree on the major point.

If we still disagree on antimage, the discussion is far from over. If you don't want me to take your words at their meaning, think more carefully before posting.

As for Zigur helping less, Zigur is physically incapable of helping as much as mages can. Yes, they tell you to walk while you get a teleport from Angolwen. Notice how neither side offers any true help. (And no. Saving you a walk to a mountain isn't help when you can travel from one end of Eyal to the other without breaking a sweat.)

Though there might not be much reason for discussion unless you're willing to address the mages who the world would be better off without. I'm perfectly willing to concede that many among Zigur are radical in their beliefs and, if not neccessarrily deserving of death, certainly need to be kept the hell away from anyone who's both magic and not pure evil at all times. But I also ask you to concede that the vast majority of problems in the game are caused by mages.

Like it or not, mages are dangerous to other people. As Robsoie pointed out, even Linaniil had a hand in making the world the shithole it is today. She trained the mages that drive the plot of the game, and while she most certainly had no intention of causing the trouble she did, the results stay the same. As does her irresponsibility, considering she is the single most powerful person in the entire world and the most help she ever offers is a teleport to a mountain.

[Doctornull]

If you don't want me to take your words at their meaning, think more carefully before posting.

Ah, so you're going to double-down on that. Poor choice, but you think carefully before posting, so clearly it must have been your best option.

Glad we agree, DoctorNull.

Your words. You said we agree. Therefore, since you think carefully before posting, you must know that means you already agreed with everything I said.

Huh, it's kind of fun to hang someone by his own sophomoric rhetoric.

[Red]

Yes, thank you for doing the same thing you accused me of doing.

But before this goes any further towards mudslinging, DoctorNull, I have a proposition. Since we're close to flat out arguing instead of any form of debate, let's just take a post and put down what exactly we're trying to say. Do not address the other person, just a statement of our thoughts on the matter of antimagic and antimage sentiment in Eyal. Seeing as how I'm posting this, I'll go first.

I believe that, due to the destruction magic has caused and continues to cause in Eyal, the majority of people have good reason to be afraid of magic. And people who are afraid are only a step away from people who are angry. While in many cases, the anger turning into violence is directed at the wrong people, hurting innocents instead of working against the truly evil mages, the core of the fear and anger is there for a good reason. The only flaw in the antimage sentiment of Eyal is how broad in scope it is, targeting everyone from mages who truly deserve to die for all the people they've killed and all the lives they've ruined to innocent people who are using their magic for good. If people were able to discriminate between mages who abuse their magic and mages who do not, then the antimage sentiment would have achieved its goal and be a force for good, working towards wiping out the people who have caused so many problems in Eyal.

Antimagic sentiment, that is, the belief that magic is an inherently corrupting force, is to my knowledge simply wrong. Magic is a tool and a very powerful tool, but it is no more corrupting than any other form of power. Linaniil, for all the mistakes she has made, is an excellent example of someone with ridiculous magical power who has not been corrupted, who still works her magic for good.

And, as a minor side note addressing my earlier statement about Linaniil being irresponsible in not stopping the mages herself, is there any lore from Linaniil where she gives a reason she does not? I do imagine that she may be not doing it simply because she has a no-interference policy on any global matter, since she fears that if she starts interfering, she'll keep going until she's "fixed" everything. Similar to Superman and why he only ruled the world in "Red Son".

[Doctornull]

Yes, thank you for doing the same thing you accused me of doing.

After asking you not to do it, and observing you double-down on doing it even harder, yes, I showed you what it would be like if we both did it.

Also I informed you that it was a poor choice on your part. I hope you're maybe starting to see that reality?

But before this goes any further towards mudslinging, DoctorNull, I have a proposition. Since we're close to flat out arguing instead of any form of debate

Dude. I've been honestly debating this whole time.

YOU are the one using garbage rhetorical tactics like "b-b-but technically your word was BLUH so that means you agree with me even though clearly you don't". I am the one mocking you for trying to use that sort of "clever trick".

Say whatever you must to cover your ass, but don't try to put me down at your level.

[Red]

YOU are the one using garbage rhetorical tactics like "b-b-but technically your word was BLUH so that means you agree with me even though clearly you don't". I am the one mocking you for trying to use that sort of "clever trick".

DoctorNull, that is not honest debate. That is personally attacking me. I have done my best to treat you this entire time as an intellgient person. I have tried not to mock you or disparage you in any way but debating the issue. I have, in all probability, not succeeded perfectly because no, I'm not perfect. So if you've been offended by anything you feel attacked you instead of your arguements, I apologize for it.

I have never not tried to mock you, nor have I portrayed you as a stuttering moron. You have just admitted to doing both. If you are sincere in your desire to debate, then I would ask for two things from you. A brief apology for the statement from you I quoted, and for you to do the same thing I did in my last post. Write down your position on this debate. Do not argue it, just explain as best you can what you think about the issue.

Edit: My last post was an attempt to stop the downward slide of this debate. It's been steadily getting less and less rational and more and more personal. We are both to blame for this, DoctorNull. We've both contributed to making the debate more like an arguement. I do want to debate and I don't want to to argue, which is why I made my last post. I'm willing to accept in blame in making it worse, but I'm more concerned about making it better. I hope you feel the same.

[Hogulus]

To get back on topic... The way I see it: Antimagic is not in the right, but the actions of the Ziguranth are understandable, arguably even reasonable, given the information they're working with. Sure, we as players know that magic isn't a corrupting force, but given what most non-mage residents of Maj'Eyal have seen, you can't really blame them for thinking it is.

[Red]

To get back on topic...

Tannen's tower rewrite. We're so on topic!

I'd agree to that, Hogulus. Though the normal people in Eyal actually aren't too strongly antimagic, considering alchemists live in town and you can even do alchemist quests as a Zigur adherent.

[pheonix89]

To get back on topic...

Tannen's tower rewrite. We're so on topic!

I'd agree to that, Hogulus. Though the normal people in Eyal actually aren't too strongly antimagic, considering alchemists live in town and you can even do alchemist quests as a Zigur adherent.

It's pretty hard to convince people to kill the guy who makes a living turning out healing supplies and disease curatives. And an alchemist of the PC kind that settled down isn't gonna get attacked simply because an alchemist with a choke-point is an army-killer. He's got explosives on tap, a meat-shield, and his bombs are cheap enough mana-wise that if Mana Clash doesn't one-shot him he can just pop a manasurge rune and blow away the mana clash user before they can use it again.

[Red]

I honestly feel like that's the main reason we actually get to work in towns. We're so damn powerful no one brings up the fact that we just run around murdering everything everywhere we go, out of fear we'll put their town on the list.

Sort of like how you can be a necromancer with an undead army in town and no one bats an eye. One undead is scary, an army that hasn't attacked you yet just means avert your eyes and pray really hard it doesn't notice you.

Except in Angolwen and any other high level towns. They are fully capable of kicking your ass six ways from Sunday when you show up, so sometimes make you wonder about them being okay with you.

[Faeryan]

I'm always thinking you can't murder Derth without repercussions. You might be able to kill everyone in town in the span of one game but a higher power (mages of Angolwen for example) will later have your head for it.
Game lore wise that might not be accurate but I'm always thinking like that. Bigger world around the one we're playing in creates more lively atmosphere and makes one more humble.